Bloody Sunday: British Troops to be Questionned

[Guy]

Detectives investigating the events of Bloody Sunday in Derry are to begin questioning more than 1,000 witnesses.

Thirteen people were shot dead by the British Army on Sunday, 30 January 1972 at a civil rights march in the city.

A 14th man died later from his wounds.

In 2010, the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday was heavily critical of the Army, finding that soldiers fired the first shot without issuing a warning.

The report also found that all of those who were killed were unarmed. Some of them were clearly fleeing or going to the assistance of others who were dying,

As part of the police investigation launched in 2012, detectives want to re-interview former soldiers and civilians who gave evidence to the Saville Inquiry or who may have information about the day.

"It is necessary to re-interview witnesses because police are precluded from using Saville testimony in a criminal investigation," a spokesperson for the PSNI said.
Clear investigative process

A series of notices will be placed in local newspapers and other publications to encourage witnesses to come forward again.

Detective Chief Inspector Ian Harrison who is leading the investigation said: "We now have the additional resources in place and a clear investigative process to follow.

"For the investigation to be as comprehensive and effective as possible, police are asking for public support in the form of witnesses who gave evidence to the Saville Inquiry to now make statements to detectives.

"Contact has also been made with former military witnesses."

He said that former soldiers who gave evidence were granted anonymity during Saville, unless their names were already in the public domain.

"That ruling does not automatically carry over to the current police investigation. Anonymity will be a matter for a future court to consider," Ch Insp Harrison said.

"Police want to assure all who engage with the investigation team that all matters will be treated in the strictest confidence and the support and welfare of witnesses are important considerations.

"It is our intention to conduct these inquiries as quickly as possible."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-norther...-west-26009851

The 42nd annual anniversary was held yesterday in Derry with a 4,000 strong march through the town to remember the innocent civilians killed by British troops.

Whether or not this slice of justice will contribute to any peaceful solution is another matter completely. It seems almost obvious that the continuation of secrecy regarding the actions of the British troops remains well and truly sealed despite what the Saville enquiry told us.

Hopefully this will be a push forward in terms of clearing the continuous hatred which lies behind closed doors and bring a sense of equal justice to the playing field. But then again...

[The Alcotroll]

As opposed to the ing Shinners, who've been entirely open and honest with everyone throughout, right?

What was Martin up to that day, anyway?

[Ciabhán]

We should have moved on a decade or two ago. I was born 6 months after Bloody Sunday. Because of my father and the situation it was the defining event of my life until I was in my late teens. Got over all that a long time ago. If I did anyone can.

[Guy]

We should have moved on a decade or two ago. I was born 6 months after Bloody Sunday. Because of my father and the situation it was the defining event of my life until I was in my late teens. Got over all that a long time ago. If I did anyone can.

Sadly convincing the rest of Óglaigh na hÉireann and its modern day counterparts ain't gonna be that easy...

[Ciabhán]

Sadly convincing the rest of Óglaigh na hÉireann and its modern day counterparts ain't gonna be that easy...

Hate to be that guy but not my problem anymore. I left all that behind at 17 when my family died and I emigrated. I still have the old house and I still spend a fair portion of each year in Belfast but I walked away from those things decades ago.

In fact the vast majority of family, friends and acquaintances who were, shall we say, less than nice people are pretty average middle aged family folk now. Let the past stay in the past. I can't imagine they'd want their pasts dredged up and publicised these days. Shouldn't be doing it to the other side either. I do believe we had an agreement about all that. Stick to the spirit of it.

[Guy]

Hate to be that guy but not my problem anymore. I left all that behind at 17 when my family died and I emigrated. I still have the old house and I still spend a fair portion of each year in Belfast but I walked away from those things decades ago.

In fact the vast majority of family, friends and acquaintances who were, shall we say, less than nice people are pretty average middle aged family folk now. Let the past stay in the past. I can't imagine they'd want their pasts dredged up and publicised these days. Shouldn't be doing it to the other side either. I do believe we had an agreement about all that. Stick to the spirit of it.

Onwards to peace.

That, however, does not mean we should disregard the deaths of individuals for the sake of a single person realising they don't want to associate themselves with a certain political stance - at least not publicly. All crimes are and should be held accountable for according to govt. law. Justice, sadly, is thing us humans like to cling to when we feel betrayed as many Bogsiders do.

They have a right to know.

[hellheaven1987]

Yes but the younger generation wants to know the truth too.

[Ciabhán]

Yes but the younger generation wants to know the truth too.

Why? That kind of thinking just continues the cycle. The younger generation needs to be looking to the future not the past. They have a chance to avoid being part of all the problems. My generation should be pushing them to do so not dragging them down to wallow in our dungheaps.

That, however, does not mean we should disregard the deaths of individuals for the sake of a single person realising they don't want to associate themselves with a certain political stance - at least not publicly. All crimes are and should be held accountable for according to govt. law. Justice, sadly, is thing us humans like to cling to when we feel betrayed as many Bogsiders do.

No one should disregard them. They should be remembered and the incident itself kept in memory as an example of what was wrong at the time. That doesn't mean that decades old crimes should be dragged into the light, at the risk of new violence, for the sake of an ideal. Reality and the ideal world rarely coexist.

[Phier]

Yes but the younger generation wants to know the truth too.

Nothing is more useful than picking at old wounds. Generally people who want this sort of thing are more interested in looking for an excuse for new confrontations.

I'm of Irish genealogy myself, my mothers family was pro-IRA in the 70's and kept in touch with the Irish side, I wouldn't be shocked if some donated. Everyone has moved on or died.

[Guy]

Nothing is more useful than picking at old wounds. Generally people who want this sort of thing are more interested in looking for an excuse for new confrontations.

I'm of Irish genealogy myself, my mothers family was pro-IRA in the 70's and kept in touch with the Irish side, I wouldn't be shocked if some donated. Everyone has moved on or died.

I still don't understand the willingness to simply forget or rather ignore certain events to some extent. Although I understand picking at old wounds does create new and often unwanted tensions, those who killed the 14 on that day have never been prosecuted for their crimes. Justice is the greatest issue here not promoting Irish Republicanism.

The OIRA and RIRA still well and truly exist, Phier.

[Phier]

I still don't understand the willingness to simply forget or rather ignore certain events to some extent. Although I understand picking at hold wounds does create new and often unwanted tensions, those who killed the 14 on that day have never been prosecuted for their crimes. Justice is the greatest issue here not promoting Irish Republicanism.

The OIRA and RIRA still well and truly exist, Phier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._peace_process

Revenge was had.

[Condottiere 40K]

I believe there's a cache of rather damning stuff locked up in a university at Boston, research material for those in academia that want to study insurrections; I hear the British would be keen to get hold of it.

[Carach]

The 42nd annual anniversary was held yesterday in Derry with a 4,000 strong march through the town to remember the innocent civilians killed by British troops.

Whether or not this slice of justice will contribute to any peaceful solution is another matter completely. It seems almost obvious that the continuation of secrecy regarding the actions of the British troops remains well and truly sealed despite what the Saville enquiry told us.

Hopefully this will be a push forward in terms of clearing the continuous hatred which lies behind closed doors and bring a sense of equal justice to the playing field. But then again...

u compare these events to Saville.

Nice to know some of the blatantly insulting banter remains even in my absence.

Nobody is innocent when it comes to Ireland. Everyone has blood on their hands.

As said; the past is the past, we've had agreements on it (god knows we've had many over the last hundred years or so eh..like home rule, partition, so on so forth.. but its never good enough).. how does one ever move on if things like this keep being dredged up.

[Guy]

u compare these events to Saville.

Nice to know some of the blatantly insulting banter remains even in my absence.

Nobody is innocent when it comes to Ireland. Everyone has blood on their hands.

As said; the past is the past, we've had agreements on it (god knows we've had many over the last hundred years or so eh..like home rule, partition, so on so forth.. but its never good enough).. how does one ever move on if things like this keep being dredged up.

I hope you're aware that is the Bloody Sunday Inquiry commissioned by Lord Saville as opposed to the recent Jimmy Saville enquiry... Just seems odd how you worded the comparison part.

Well you've answered your own question in a way in the sense it's an endless rhetoric. This clash will continue so long as the UK occupies Northern Ireland and as much as people like to disregard the past for it simply being "the past," it is an ongoing struggle in the eyes of Irish Republicans with as much relevance today as it did in the times of Robert Emmet.

What I do find interesting though is the outcome people want. You mentioned "moving on" but what is moving on? Is it the acceptance that Northern Ireland has been defeated, annexed and that its people should now accept the crown? Or is it giving back Northern Ireland to Ireland and implementing a full ceasefire between all major and minor parties?

[Azog 150]

Is it the acceptance that Northern Ireland has been defeated, annexed and that its people should now accept the crown?

Northern Ireland was annexed 350 years ago. How far back are you wanting to go exactly? And what exactly is your definition of defeat? The main issue that led to the Troubles was the civil rights movement, and thankfully I don't think Catholics can claim to be institutionally discriminated against today. And why do its people have to accept the Crown? There are plenty of people throughout Britain who don't accept the Crown. Believe it or not, you can still be a Republican and want to put such political ideologys behind the surely more important issue of wanting you, and your children, and their children, to be able to live a life of peace whether its as part of the UK or the ROI (And ultimately it doesn't really matter which).

Or is it giving back Northern Ireland to Ireland and implementing a full ceasefire between all major and minor parties?

Please explain how you would hope to avoid Northern Ireland descending back into a bloody mess by reunifying it with the Republic of Ireland in the face of the Unionist majority, and when the ROI has its own economic problems to be dealing with?

Whatever side of the divide you lie on, surely the desire for peace should trump all else? Someone living outside of Northern Ireland under the guise of caring for Northern Ireland, then calling for something that would undoubtedly cause a return to violence isn't very becoming when there is a peace process underway.

[Guy]

Please explain how you would hope to avoid Northern Ireland descending back into a bloody mess by reunifying it with the Republic of Ireland in the face of the Unionist majority, and when the ROI has its own economic problems to be dealing with?

Whatever side of the divide you lie on, surely the desire for peace should trump all else? Someone living outside of Northern Ireland calling for something that would undoubtedly cause a return to violence isn't very becoming when there is already a peace process underway. The issue that led to the Troubles was the civil rights movement, and thankfully I don't think Catholics can claim to be institutionally discriminated against today.

I'm not claiming I have the answer - if I did I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be sat here now debating a solution and its history - but rather I'm asking what this "moving on" phrase refers to. It seems to be tossed around with a false certainty yet nobody ever seems to justify what "moving on" really is.

[Guy]

Whatever side of the divide you lie on, surely the desire for peace should trump all else? Someone living outside of Northern Ireland under the guise of caring for Northern Ireland, then calling for something that would undoubtedly cause a return to violence isn't very becoming when there is a peace process underway.

Just re-read the last part of your post.

You should know the cities we both live in have or at least had extremely high numbers of Irish immigrants living within them. Many people, including myself, are descendants of those immigrants and/or still have family living there so its relevance to me - an "outsider" - does cause me great concern.

Any solution which leads to a peaceful state in which both sides are represented equally is fine by me; the era of violence has passed.

[Simon Cashmere]

I am an Irish Catholic, so I'm likely to be biassed. That said - If you read Lord Saville's report, you see that mistakes were made and compounded. The British paras didn't go out there to machine gun the Irish. Irish crowds Catholic or Protestant can kill you armed or not armed if they get to you. Seriously read the report, and yes there were things that weren't done properly, but it was just people doing a very difficult job who made a sequence of errors which ultimately led to a lot of innocent people being shot. When you see what was going on, with a very angry crowd moving about and terrified squaddies in the way- it was inevitable that mistakes were going to be made.

I feel for the families of people who died, but, there has to be an end and for me Lord Saville's report was the end. I don't think rounding soldiers up after so long is going to do any good, particularly when the British crown has forgiven so many on the other side of the ledger who did terrible things.

The Northern Ireland thing tends to lead to hysteria in threads on any forum.

[Himster]

Whatever side of the divide you lie on, surely the desire for peace should trump all else? Someone living outside of Northern Ireland under the guise of caring for Northern Ireland, then calling for something that would undoubtedly cause a return to violence isn't very becoming when there is a peace process underway

As long as half the population consider themselves Irish and the other half considers themselves British peace can only be temporary, it may last 100 years or 300 hundred years, a contrived forgetfulness of history can only last for so long. It doesn't matter if the North is in British hands or Irish hands, it's history will remain it's history and it's divided people will remain it's divided people.

What needs to be formed is a Northern-Irish identity that is separate of the two identities, something that is easier said than done.

[Azog 150]

Just re-read the last part of your post.

You should know the cities we both live in have or at least had extremely high numbers of Irish immigrants living within them. Many people, including myself, are descendants of those immigrants and/or still have family living there so its relevance to me - an "outsider" - does cause me great concern.

Any solution which leads to a peaceful state in which both sides are represented equally is fine by me; the era of violence has passed.

Indeed the city I live in, much like Northern Ireland, was rife with sectarian violence and hatred right up until the 1930's (hence why it was nicknamed the 'Belfast of England'). Indeed, 40% of the population of the city is Catholic, not so dissimilar to the proportion of Catholics in Northern Ireland. And, as you say, I too (as are some 90% of the city who claim some kind of Irish ancestry) descended from Irish immigrants. But you know what? Those old sectarian hatreds have passed (aside from the occasional small Orange Order or Irish Republican march). The only identity that matters now is whether or not you are Scouse! It took a World War, slum clearances, rehousing in non-segregated estates and a few decades of complete economic turmoil to get there, but get there it did.

It causes me concern as well. Indeed I have just started a university module on the Northern Irish troubles and my dissertation project revolves around conflict resolution (indeed this is something I hope to go on to be involved in in later life). It seemed to me that you were suggesting the North should be reunited with the Republic, with the only other alternative being the acceptance of some kind of 'subjugation'. Obviously I read wrong so I think we can agree that it doesn't matter what the ultimate destination for Northern Ireland is as long as it remains peaceful and without discrimination.

As long as half the population consider themselves Irish and the other half considers themselves British peace can only be temporary, it may last 100 years or 300 hundred years, a contrived forgetfulness of history can only last for so long. It doesn't matter if the North is in British hands or Irish hands, it's history will remain it's history and it's divided people will remain it's divided people.

What needs to be formed is a Northern-Irish identity that is separate of the two identities, something that is easier said than done.

I agree. Indeed as I said above there was a similar forgetting of such hatreds in Liverpool (although obviously under different circumstances and with the hatreds much less deep rooted). But the only way people are going to reach a peaceful solution or a united Northern Irish identity is to start forgetting these old hatreds (Not to say the past should be forgotten, but it should be assessed with the intent of moving forwards in the future). Issues like that raised in the OP are not how these old hatreds are going to be forgotten.