Why did not you make Ethiopia faction

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

Never said that. I mean that Romans out of Rome where so not like romans in Rome. And that a lot of "roman enthusiasts" would fall of their chair if they really knew what a "roman" was.

Idealization is so overrated.

Wait, were you referring to the 'spiritual border of Rome'?

[Consvl Plebian Maximvs Major]

Haha, this thread is hilarious!
Good job ekdqn

Wait, were you referring to the 'spiritual border of Rome'?

Yes, I believe he was referring to it

[MagisterEquites]

Floren, why the sudden patronising tone? In the time period we're discussing a 'Roman' (lets say for arguments sake someone who was either a roman citizen proper or one of their social allies) would have been a fairly disparate group alright, but they would have been held together with a common language and a common government. There's no need for you to start getting snotty. When you talk about cultural hegemony, well you have to admit that (allowing for obvious regional differences) there was a common Latin culture across the Italian peninsula, while it may have been less pronounced in Magna Grecia it was still there, so stop being an intellectual snob. You've no monopoly on 'real' historical knowledge here or anywhere else.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Right... If you think so, I am sure you are all right, a master and know what you mean.

I don't know anything about history, and I sure pushing plastic soldiers of the same shape and colors (everybody knows romans where wearing red, of course) makes a lot of fanatics renown international historians.

I am sorry if I don't like when history is torn apart by absolutes vision of a culture and simplification. I am sorry to think that history is a really subtle discipline, with a lot of unknown and a lot of disparity.

I am sorry to think that romans where a culture that doesn't "worth" more attention from people than any other culture, and I am sorry for being offusqued when any culture is raped in it's essence because nobody knows about them and so it is ok to fail yo respect them, their identity and their integrity, when romans should stay a solid block of culture because (some) learned at school that "they are so awesome and dominated the world and are sacred and gave us civilisation" and all.

I am sorry but I stay where I stand and I know I don't know much, but the first thing to know about history is what you DON'T know, if not, you have not history, you have political or ethnical propaganda and vulgarisation.

You don't want to be patronized ?

I understand.

Thinking is generally the first step to achieve that.

I don't "own" history, that's the fist thing I ever heard, the first thing I ever learned and the first thing that I ever tried to say here.

But here, lots of people "own" history, consider "their" knowledge as the absolute knowledge, consider their ignorance as unimportant and what they don't know as inexistent or simplified.

I understand that point of view, but sadly it is impossible to win an argument when using those methods.

I try to defend absolute knowledge, I try to relativize when some try to fill the holes with imagination or fast thinking.

I don't care to have the good answer, I don't care to win, I only care for objectivity.

I understand that it is not technically easy to insert a black African culture in the game, I am more than willing to let go, with sadness, but willing nonetheless, but some arguments here against are so oriented and simple that I just find it sad.

And if intellectual is a flaw in a discussion about history, then the conclusion of the discussion will never be something worth writing down.

I am not trying to be more intellectual than you, I am trying to encourage you to be more intellectual when facing a problem that can only be debated in an intellectual manner.

Come on...

[Appius Pulcher]

I am sorry if I don't like when history is torn apart by absolutes vision of a culture and simplification. I am sorry to think that history is a really subtle discipline, with a lot of unknown and a lot of disparity.

Then you really shouldn't play the game at all. Or any historical game for that matter. It will always be simplified, and a game engine will never leave enough room for subtle differences between cultures. EB is possibly the very best approximation that can be achieved with the engine at hand, but it is still an approximation.

There are a lot of unknowns with a lot of the factions represented, and those unknows will be filled out with the best possible speculation. The more knowledge we have, the more precisely we can depict a culture. This is what makes a justification for Romans as a culture, as we have a very large amount of sources on it. This is in contrast to many of the other depicted factions where facts are scarce and culture and language has to be extrapolated from neighbouring peoples.
When you look at it this way you would defy more historical sources by not having the Romans as a culture, than by not having another faction as a culture.
I hope I have understood your argument.

Another thing is that your posts do come across as condescending and with an aggressive tone. Don't know if you intended this or not, but it is not necessary for the intellectual debate you request.

[Teluvinas]

Applause! First intelligent post I've read in this these for a few pages!

Then you really shouldn't play the game at all. Or any historical game for that matter. It will always be simplified, and a game engine will never leave enough room for subtle differences between cultures. EB is possibly the very best approximation that can be achieved with the engine at hand, but it is still an approximation.

There are a lot of unknowns with a lot of the factions represented, and those unknows will be filled out with the best possible speculation. The more knowledge we have, the more precisely we can depict a culture. This is what makes a justification for Romans as a culture, as we have a very large amount of sources on it. This is in contrast to many of the other depicted factions where facts are scarce and culture and language has to be extrapolated from neighbouring peoples.
When you look at it this way you would defy more historical sources by not having the Romans as a culture, than by not having another faction as a culture.
I hope I have understood your argument.

Another thing is that your posts do come across as condescending and with an aggressive tone. Don't know if you intended this or not, but it is not necessary for the intellectual debate you request.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Yeah, right, you are so clever.

So as you said, I will shut up and let you debate how who can win over an other and forget and you just deny any rational thought done by this mod, as opposed to how this mod has been created.

Actually, if EB was opposed to arguments like yours, it would never have been made.

You bet I am condescending. The feeling here is like arguing with childs or thugs.

Sorry but you won.

You are right,
I am wrong,
Your way of thinking will open you a lot of path in the historical circle.

I wish you lots of fun with your romans, while I continue to try to understand the rest of the world.

And... You know what ? Just check the first post : why am I condescending ?

Because the initial response that was thrown to me was :"you are ignorant", and after that, it stayed an universal answer when I tryed to reason with logic and knowledge so again :

Have fun in the lion pit, I won't stay on your way of true ignorance.

I can't say I didn't try.

[Appius Pulcher]

Yeah, right, you are so clever.

So as you said, I will shut up and let you debate how who can win over an other and forget and you just deny any rational thought done by this mod, as opposed to how this mod has been created.

Actually, if EB was opposed to arguments like yours, it would never have been made.

You bet I am condescending. The feeling here is like arguing with childs or thugs.

Sorry but you won.

You are right,
I am wrong,
Your way of thinking will open you a lot of path in the historical circle.

I wish you lots of fun with your romans, while I continue to try to understand the rest of the world.

And... You know what ? Just check the first post : why am I condescending ?

Because the initial response that was thrown to me was :"you are ignorant", and after that, it stayed an universal answer when I tryed to reason with logic and knowledge so again :

Have fun in the lion pit, I won't stay on your way of true ignorance.

I can't say I didn't try.

I present you with a counter-argument. I do so in a dispassionate way, and if you disagree with it tell me why. Right now you are being childish, and you are not at all debating. You may have a point in some of what you are saying, but your reluctance to debate your case means that any point you may have doesn't get discussed, because who would want to discuss it with you?

I have never stated that you are ignorant, yet you are throwing trash my way. This behaviour is not justified, and you are doing damage to your own cause. I am attempting to give you a chance to have the discussion I thought you wanted to have.

[TiagoJRToledo]

Yeah, right, you are so clever.

So as you said, I will shut up and let you debate how who can win over an other and forget and you just deny any rational thought done by this mod, as opposed to how this mod has been created.

Actually, if EB was opposed to arguments like yours, it would never have been made.

You bet I am condescending. The feeling here is like arguing with childs or thugs.

Sorry but you won.

You are right,
I am wrong,
Your way of thinking will open you a lot of path in the historical circle.

I wish you lots of fun with your romans, while I continue to try to understand the rest of the world.

And... You know what ? Just check the first post : why am I condescending ?

Because the initial response that was thrown to me was :"you are ignorant", and after that, it stayed an universal answer when I tryed to reason with logic and knowledge so again :

Have fun in the lion pit, I won't stay on your way of true ignorance.

I can't say I didn't try.

I'll try to make this clear.

The only remark about ignorance wasn't even directed at one of your posts, it was regarding this one:

Why not? Why couldn't the Roman culture and Greek culture be merged to save one culture slot?

Surely they're different, but not so different if you take into account of the effects of culture in game: their people look alike, they have very similar lifestyles except the aliases of their Gods and probably no bread baggers in Athene; Greek political systems were also kept just as Italian ones. Their difference may be even less significant than the difference between one Iberian tribe to another. So why not use one Greco-Roman culture to represent the two?

From an Archaeological and Historical standpoint, this is ignorance. Not even ignorance as a derogatory remark, but ignorance as in shows lack of knowledge of the subject matter.

You have no right to be condescending, seeing as your solution to the problem would be "Well, let's just replace this bias for this bias, and that will make it fair". Whether you like it or not, Roman culture became one of the most relevant during the time period of the game, and even with EB's gargantuan effort to portray every faction and culture fairly, there are some that either have to little research done on them or didn't exert enough notability during the time period.

I could also be here yelling "Hey, Lusotannan wasn't a unified state, there were many cultures in Iberia, and they each deserve their own faction!", but that would be unreasonable from me. I know the limitations of research, and the limitations of the game to come to the conclusion that not every culture can be represented, and a choice has to be made for the most relevant cultures of the period.

If you really cannot understand that, or even if you refuse to accept that, it is your prerogative. Again, I invite you wholeheartedly to make or recommend someone to make your own submod with an Ethiopian or whatever other faction you may deem worthy. I would be glad to even be of assistance.

Kind regards.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Right, I am insulted and I take it with pragmatism, and when I am pissed off, I am childish. Of course.

Next time you spit (or take side for someone who does) on someone on the street, don't forget to say that the victim is "childish" for answering rationally at first, and, continuing to be spitted on, start to be "condescending and "childish".

The truth is, I am pissed off that nobody tries to look at the greater good and the common creativity and tries to defend anything from anything with any method without respect or regard for anything else than it's opinion.

So again, not the ambiance I wish to "work" for.

Again, I respect any of you or your opinions, I said it before and again, in return, I have "ignorant" and false logic.

So I don't care, by wining a fight, you lose something else.

Sorry last post, not that I don't want to add something and *help*.

Take care.

[MagisterEquites]

I may not have access to all of this 'real' historical knowledge, but I'm a Senior Sophister student in a pretty well respected university. I happen to be fairly good at my topic, I wasn't saying your argument was invalid or pointless I was just taking issue with your tone. Reason being, you started off with a fairly academic tone and then degraded into insults. That's poor performance, especially from someone who has apparently been studying history for 12 years. It's unbecoming, you ought to apologise for the tone and be a big boy. Sure it sucks that we can't stick in more factions around africa/persia but this is the direction the team are going with. It's Europa Barbarorum after all, not Africa Barbarorum or Aethiopia Barbarorum or even Persa Barbarorum. The team probably does have a slight preference for the Greek/Roman cultures but big whoop. If you want a mod focusing on Persia then make one, and best of luck to you with it.

But there is no call for being so condescending towards the other people on this forum. History as a discipline is meant to enlighten and uplift, it is meant to peer beyond the veil of human fables and show our ancestors as they truly were, it should shine a light to guide our steps towards the future by showing us our past. It should do all of this dispassionately, name calling and arrogance are anathema to an historian, as one of 12 years standing you should know better.

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

Ethiopia will one day take over the world, when Ekdqn becomes dictator of the World, the EB team will be forced to make it Aethiopia Barbarorum 2

But why don't EB hire an assassin, go to CA's Lead developers and threaten to kill them if they don't give manpower or tools to decode the 'Hardcode'?

[the man, the myth, the legend]

It could just be called greco-roman culture, I can dig it. The Seleucids and Ptolemies culture are far more different than Romans and greeks, but if you lump the romans in with the successors and greeks I can see what the problem is. I always thought that the "culture" should be changed to "government" like you have autocracy, democracy, tribal, etc. instead of the different cultures.

[maurel]

i don't have any holywood red roman robe conception. Roman culture was very different from hellenistic culture. both cultures became more "alike" whenn rome took control of greece.

You are just acting like a child.

AND YES ! THE ROMANS DESERVE THEIR ONLY CULTURE SLOT(And the especial care) BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE OF THE MOST NOTABLES CIVILIZATIONS IN HISTORY !(like you or not) and i think they are AWESOME (A little to genocidal but...) and there is a lot of info abbout them that will allow EB team to make a more precise description of them. (allowing thoses miserable like me that don't have your intelect to understand that the romans where very different than what holywood show to us...) making the mod better for everyone.
And to end:
They played a huge role in the time frame of EB2...

And all of this is useless, to change everything now would make the EB2 team to remake a lot of work and it will delay the oficial release of the mod.

[b257]

I say just leave it for a submod, that way everyone is happy.

[Kull]

I say just leave it for a submod, that way everyone is happy.

The team has said several times that not all factions slots will be used for the first release, so there definitely is room for somebody to create a specific sub-mod to add this or any other faction, really. And to the extent that somebody does a flat out awesome job with it, well......the team will be watching and it *could* alter our thinking. No promises mind you......

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

Yes

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

Wow, that's a really *Kull* idea the EB 2 team thought off

[b257]

Can we just let this thread die already, pretty please, with a cherry on top is just back and forth arguing now

[Appius Pulcher]

Can we just let this thread die already, pretty please, with a cherry on top is just back and forth arguing now

No it's not!