Why did not you make Ethiopia faction

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

All glories to Edqn for thinking of the glorious idea of removing the unnecessary faction of Rome and replacing it with Ethiopia actually i think you should no longer call it Europa Barbarorum and Aethiopia Barbarorum, and make Rome, Greece, Gaul, Parthia represented as, wait for it... EUELTHEROI!!!! and make 15 african cultures!

[Moros]

All glories to Edqn for thinking of the glorious idea of removing the unnecessary faction of Rome and replacing it with Ethiopia actually i think you should no longer call it Europa Barbarorum and Aethiopia Barbarorum, and make Rome, Greece, Gaul, Parthia represented as, wait for it... EUELTHEROI!!!! and make 15 african cultures!

Okay.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

All glories to Edqn for thinking of the glorious idea of removing the unnecessary faction of Rome and replacing it with Ethiopia actually i think you should no longer call it Europa Barbarorum and Aethiopia Barbarorum, and make Rome, Greece, Gaul, Parthia represented as, wait for it... EUELTHEROI!!!! and make 15 african cultures!

U mad bro?

[Samraat Mahendra Maurya]

U mad bro?

Okay

[AqD]

Why not? Why couldn't the Roman culture and Greek culture be merged to save one culture slot?

Surely they're different, but not so different if you take into account of the effects of culture in game: their people look alike, they have very similar lifestyles except the aliases of their Gods and probably no bread baggers in Athene; Greek political systems were also kept just as Italian ones. Their difference may be even less significant than the difference between one Iberian tribe to another. So why not use one Greco-Roman culture to represent the two?

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Why not? Why couldn't the Roman culture and Greek culture be merged to save one culture slot?

Surely they're different, but not so different if you take into account of the effects of culture in game: their people look alike, they have very similar lifestyles except the aliases of their Gods and probably no bread baggers in Athene; Greek political systems were also kept just as Italian ones. Their difference may be even less significant than the difference between one Iberian tribe to another. So why not use one Greco-Roman culture to represent the two?

I was precisely thinking exactly that this morning. From a lot of point of view they are two same cultures. Agrarian citizens, same "kingdom vs senatorial gov, same xenophobia, pride. Those two cultures has not a lot of things different. Same difference between pritanoi and arverni...

[naq]

I was precisely thinking exactly that this morning. From a lot of point of view they are two same cultures. Agrarian citizens, same "kingdom vs senatorial gov, same xenophobia, pride. Those two cultures has not a lot of things different. Same difference between pritanoi and arverni...

The Greeks were more xenophobic though. The Romans had an Arab as emperor, so they were quite relaxed, at least during later periods.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

The Greeks were more xenophobic though. The Romans had an Arab as emperor, so they were quite relaxed, at least during later periods.

Yeap.

But at that time, Greeks where Romans and they held the fort until more than a millennium later.

[TiagoJRToledo]

Why not? Why couldn't the Roman culture and Greek culture be merged to save one culture slot?

Surely they're different, but not so different if you take into account of the effects of culture in game: their people look alike, they have very similar lifestyles except the aliases of their Gods and probably no bread baggers in Athene; Greek political systems were also kept just as Italian ones. Their difference may be even less significant than the difference between one Iberian tribe to another. So why not use one Greco-Roman culture to represent the two?

The ignorance in this post is staggering.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

The ignorance in this post is staggering.

Yeah, because it is so much better to include celts in Britain, Gaul, central Europe and Spain in the same cultural pool, of course.

A greko-latin culture would not be damaging for any of the two cultures.

Give me one single argument instead of throwing insults.

EDIT : it's not even Greek, it's HELLENIC. Macedonians, free cities of Greece, pergamon, Bosphore, Seleucids, ptolemaioi, heleno-bactrian kingdom, epiros, and I forget at least one.

Stating that those are a cultural coherence (sure... From Buddhists to Isis worshipers... From kingdoms to democracies...) And pushing the romans out of the equation seems to be an utopia so again : one argument against those two in the same group... One wrong thing it would so to a faction or the other.

I am curious.

[TiagoJRToledo]

Yeah, because it is so much better to include celts in Britain, Gaul, central Europe and Spain in the same cultural pool, of course.

A greko-latin culture would not be damaging for any of the two cultures.

Give me one single argument instead of throwing insults.

EDIT : it's not even Greek, it's HELLENIC. Macedonians, free cities of Greece, pergamon, Bosphore, Seleucids, ptolemaioi, heleno-bactrian kingdom, epiros, and I forget at least one.

Stating that those are a cultural coherence (sure... From Buddhists to Isis worshipers... From kingdoms to democracies...) And pushing the romans out of the equation seems to be an utopia so again : one argument against those two in the same group... One wrong thing it would so to a faction or the other.

I am curious.

Firstly, celts of Britain, celts of Gaul, celts of Iberia and even celts from Anatolia, although they are different from one another, they are still celts, and recognized each other as cultural kin.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "greco-latin" culture until the late 4th century A.D. The Hellenic culture developed from the Minoan and Mycenean cultures (3500 b.C), intertwined with other Indo-European cultures. Roman (and to some extent "Latin") culture developed from the Etruscan civilization (c. 1000 b.C) and from other peoples such as the Samnites. Only after the Greek Apoikia, in which they started to intensify contacts in the Italian Peninsula, did the Latin and Greek cultures start to permeate one another.

To sum up, to put Hellenes and Latins in the same culture group, as I said earlier, is ignorance.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Firstly, celts of Britain, celts of Gaul, celts of Iberia and even celts from Anatolia, although they are different from one another, they are still celts, and recognized each other as cultural kin.

Romans aknowledged Greeks as their ancestors, in their own mythology of the creation of Rome (Romulus and Remus). Don't tell me you ignore that.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "greco-latin" culture until the late 4th century A.D. The Hellenic culture developed from the Minoan and Mycenean cultures (3500 b.C), intertwined with other Indo-European cultures. Roman (and to some extent "Latin") culture developed from the Etruscan civilization (c. 1000 b.C) and from other peoples such as the Samnites. Only after the Greek Apoikia, in which they started to intensify contacts in the Italian Peninsula, did the Latin and Greek cultures start to permeate one another.

And macedonian developped from what ? And Epeiros ? And do you know that Celts melted with original cultures from their territories (that's a reason why Celtiberians are a different culture from britain celts...), and what about Egyptians ? They where too from Minoan and Mycean ?

To sum up, to put Hellenes and Latins in the same culture group, as I said earlier, is ignorance.

- Origin is not a factor for setting appart two cultures.
- The fact that they considered themselves different neither.

I won't even start with the semitic peoples, or the "parthian" culture.

Let's be factual : there is no problem of grouping a lot of cultures that are just ignorant of each others or completely different, because they are neither greeks, or romans.

The problem is a problem only because we talk about romans and greeks, and because it is "ignorant" to consider them the "same". But the irony here is that a lot of people ignore that a lot of other cultures are not the same, and so for them, that's ok, please put them together.

Who is the ignorant here ? Where is the ignorance ? Once again, barbarian cultures are ignored but Roman and Greek cultures are idealized, and more care is given.

Because we ignore other cultures.

I say put Roman and Greeks in the same soup where other cultures are boiling, and treat them as equal, not as supperior and more important and more needing of our care and our classification system.

ADENDUM :

As a start of reasoning, here are the factions and the culture :

Cultures :

Classical Greek (Will be divided between Western Greek and Eastern Greek)
Classical Latin
Parthian
Phoenician-Punic
Gaulish
Proto-Germanic
Classical Sanskrit

Factions :

Aedui (Gallic faction of northeastern Gaul)
Arche Seleukeia (Seleucid Empire - Persian Hellenic successor empire)
Areuakoi (Celtic Iberian faction, northern Spain)
Arverni (Gallic faction of central Gaul)
Baktria (Central Asian Hellenic successor faction, modern Afghanistan and Tajikistan)
Boii (Eastern Celtic faction, modern Austria and Hungary)
Bosphoran Kingdom (Hellenic faction in modern Crimea and the steppes)
Epeiros (Kingdom of Epirus - Hellenic successor faction on the Illyrian frontier)
Getai (Thraco-Dacian faction of modern Romania)
Hayasdan (Kingdom of Armenia)
Koinon Hellenon (Chremonidean League of the Greek city-states of Athens, Sparta, and Rhodes)
Lugiones (Slavic-Germanic faction in modern Poland)
Lusotannan (Iberian faction of modern Portugal and southern Spain)
Makedonia (Kingdom of Macedonia)
Malkûtâ Nabâta (Nabataean Kingdom, Arabian faction in modern day Jordan)
Mamla'ha biMassylim (Numidian Kingdom in North Africa)
Pahlava (Parthian Dahae Kingdom)
Pergamon (Hellenic successor rump faction in western Asia Minor)
Pontos (Persian-Hellenic successor faction in northern Asia Minor)
Pritanoi (Briton faction in southern Britannia - replacing the Casse from EB I)
Ptolemaioi (Ptolemaic Empire - Egyptian Hellenic successor faction)
Safot Softim biQarthadast (Republic of Carthage)
Sb' w-gwm (Sabaean Commonwealth, Arabian faction of modern Yemen)
Saka Rauka (Eastern Scythian nomadic faction of Central Asia)
Sauromatae (Western Scythian nomadic faction of the Pontic steppe)
Senatus Populusque Romanus (Republic of Rome)
Swêboz (Germanic faction of northern Germania)
Taksashila (Satrapy of the Mauryan Empire, modern Pakistan)

So now, little game : try to put every factions in the appropriated culture without being ignorant of their differences, and then, try to keep diferencing romans from greeks without thinking about a double standard.

EDIT : I tried to merge this post with the one before, but I don't know how to delete a post.

[AqD]

Firstly, celts of Britain, celts of Gaul, celts of Iberia and even celts from Anatolia, although they are different from one another, they are still celts, and recognized each other as cultural kin.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "greco-latin" culture until the late 4th century A.D. The Hellenic culture developed from the Minoan and Mycenean cultures (3500 b.C), intertwined with other Indo-European cultures. Roman (and to some extent "Latin") culture developed from the Etruscan civilization (c. 1000 b.C) and from other peoples such as the Samnites. Only after the Greek Apoikia, in which they started to intensify contacts in the Italian Peninsula, did the Latin and Greek cultures start to permeate one another.

To sum up, to put Hellenes and Latins in the same culture group, as I said earlier, is ignorance.

Can you list some actual differences between them, rather than talking about their roots which are of course different in name but totally meaningless in game (which are really just like German Americans vs British Americans)?

Did they dislike each other, enough to cause social unrest?
Did they dress very differently?
What about the styles of their houses, walls, and forts?
Are their political systems incompatible?


PS: If you want to take culture roots into consideration, there would be dozens of cultures in central asia alone. It could be at least two to three in every of Seleucid cities.

[b257]

No matter how you view it Floren, Latin and Hellenic Culture were two different entities the time the mod takes place. Despite the two cultures sharing some aspects and having several similarities keep in Mind Greeks viewed romans as "Barbarians" during the time period of this mod (Then again greeks viewed everyone that were none greeks as barbarians during this period in history ). So in a sense combining Latin culture with Hellenic culture given the time period of the mod would not be historically or culturally accurate. While it would be nice to combine two cultures to open one slot for an African culture would be nice, alas it seems the mod team is already too close to release to make such a significant change. However, that's the beauty of submods, if someone with the skills could they could add the culture as a submod so that you and others that desired and African culture could enjoy it.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

No matter how you view it Floren, Latin and Hellenic Culture were two different entities the time the mod takes place. Despite the two cultures sharing some aspects and having several similarities keep in Mind Greeks viewed romans as "Barbarians" during the time period of this mod (Then again greeks viewed everyone that were none greeks as barbarians during this period in history ). So in a sense combining Latin culture with Hellenic culture given the time period of the mod would not be historically or culturally accurate.

All right, my turn.

What about Macedonians?

Greeks saw them as barbarians.

They are in Hellenic culture.

So the argument of "Greeks saw them as barbarian" is invalid, or you must remove Macedonian from Hellenic culture, which is also historically inaccurate.

[TiagoJRToledo]

All right, my turn.

What about Macedonians?

Greeks saw them as barbarians.

They are in Hellenic culture.

So the argument of "Greeks saw them as barbarian" is invalid, or you must remove Macedonian from Hellenic culture, which is also historically inaccurate.

Wrong, Macedonians participated in the Panhellenic games, so they were regarded as hellenes. They were only regarded as "barbarians by Athens, and more specifically Demosthenes.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

Wrong, Macedonians participated in the Panhellenic games, so they were regarded as hellenes. They were only regarded as "barbarians by Athens, and more specifically Demosthenes.

You know well why greek cities accepted the macedonian as "their own", during the Macedonian domination... Romans participated in Olympic games while Roman dominated Greek cities, too, you know...

[yuezhi]

Quesque es barbarus alio

[TLG]

I think there were separate cultures for Gauls and Germanic tribes

[b257]

Florens, its just a back and forth argument now that will continue to devolve overtime. The game is hardcoded, no more cultures can be added and combining Latin and Hellenic Culture is to be blunt, irresponsible given the historical nature of the mod. If you honestly want another culture added to this mod, make a submod.