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  1. #1
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default The French Intifada intensifies

    The Intifada in the French suburbs picks up:

    Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union
    By David Rennie, Europe Correspondent
    (Filed: 05/10/2006)


    Radical Muslims in France's housing estates are waging an undeclared "intifada" against the police, with violent clashes injuring an average of 14 officers each day.

    As the interior ministry said that nearly 2,500 officers had been wounded this year, a police union declared that its members were "in a state of civil war" with Muslims in the most depressed "banlieue" estates which are heavily populated by unemployed youths of north African origin.

    It said the situation was so grave that it had asked the government to provide police with armoured cars to protect officers in the estates, which are becoming no-go zones.

    The number of attacks has risen by a third in two years. Police representatives told the newspaper Le Figaro that the "taboo" of attacking officers on patrol has been broken.

    Instead, officers – especially those patrolling in pairs or small groups – faced attacks as soon as they tried to arrest locals.

    Senior officers insisted that the problem was essentially criminal in nature, with crime bosses on the estates fighting back against tough tactics.

    The interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, who is also the leading centre-Right candidate for the presidency, has sent heavily equipped units into areas with orders to regain control from drug smuggling gangs and other organised crime rings. Such aggressive raids were "disrupting the underground economy in the estates", one senior official told Le Figaro.

    However, not all officers on the ground accept that essentially secular interpretation. Michel Thoomis, the secretary general of the hardline Action Police trade union, has written to Mr Sarkozy warning of an "intifada" on the estates and demanding that officers be given armoured cars in the most dangerous areas.

    He said yesterday: "We are in a state of civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists. This is not a question of urban violence any more, it is an intifada, with stones and Molotov cocktails. You no longer see two or three youths confronting police, you see whole tower blocks emptying into the streets to set their 'comrades' free when they are arrested."

    He added: "We need armoured vehicles and water cannon. They are the only things that can disperse crowds of hundreds of people who are trying to kill police and burn their vehicles."

    However, Gerard Demarcq, of the largest police unions, Alliance, dismissed talk of an "intifada" as representing the views of only a minority.

    Mr Demarcq said that the increased attacks on officers were proof that the policy of "retaking territory" from criminal gangs was working.

    Mayors in the worst affected suburbs, which saw weeks of riots and car-burning a year ago, have expressed fears of a vicious circle, as attacks by locals lead the police to harden their tactics, further increasing resentment.

    As if to prove that point, there were angry reactions in the western Paris suburb of Les Mureaux following dawn raids in search of youths who attacked a police unit on Sunday. The raids led to one arrest. They followed clashes on Sunday night when scores of youths attacked seven officers who had tried to arrest a man for not wearing his seat belt while driving. That driver refused to stop, and later rammed a police car trying to block his path.

    The mayor of Les Mureaux, Francois Garay, criticised aggressive police tactics that afterwards left "the people on the ground to pick up the pieces".

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is France on the path to civil war or perhaps these are only temporary problems, nothing to worry about? Perhaps the situation will continue as a low-intensity insurgency against the French state, who knows.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  2. #2
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Wil, have you read your article before giving the title to your thread?

    Who exactly is talking about intifada?

    "Action Police"

    Who is Action Police?


    Action Police CFTC is a very small police union in France, affiliated with the Confédération Française des Travailleurs Chrétiens (CFTC) Christian trade union confederation. Its general secretary is Michel Thooris.

    Does Action Police has a political opinion apart from the Christian affiliation?

    * against the right of vote for foreigners, as suggested by Nicolas Sarkozy [7] ("Action Police CFTC is outraged by this proposal of the Ministry of the Interior and demands applications of the reciprocity principle for all French citizens who are legal residents of a foreign country.")
    * against the revision of the 1905 law about the separation of Church and State, specifically citing fears that this would result in government funding for Muslims
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Police_CFTC

    What the official Police Union in France has to say?

    However, Gerard Demarcq, of the largest police unions, Alliance, dismissed talk of an "intifada" as representing the views of only a minority.

    Mr Demarcq said that the increased attacks on officers were proof that the policy of "retaking territory" from criminal gangs was working.
    The French Intifada intensifies according to a small French Christian police union

    Now, that's a nice title!


  3. #3

    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar
    Wil, have you read your article before giving the title to your thread?

    Who exactly is talking about intifada?
    Intifada (also Intefadah or Intifadah; from انتفاضة intifāḍah "shaking off") is an Arabic term for "uprising".
    It does seem like a low level uprising to me: what does it seem like to you?

    "Action Police"

    Who is Action Police?


    Action Police CFTC is a very small police union in France, affiliated with the Confédération Française des Travailleurs Chrétiens (CFTC) Christian trade union confederation. Its general secretary is Michel Thooris.

    Does Action Police has a political opinion apart from the Christian affiliation?

    * against the right of vote for foreigners, as suggested by Nicolas Sarkozy [7] ("Action Police CFTC is outraged by this proposal of the Ministry of the Interior and demands applications of the reciprocity principle for all French citizens who are legal residents of a foreign country.")
    * against the revision of the 1905 law about the separation of Church and State, specifically citing fears that this would result in government funding for Muslims
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Police_CFTC
    I don't see anything objectionable there, but I think the prime concern is not who these people are, but whether they are being factual. There's obviously an ethnic undertone to this: these are North African and Arab youth who are attacking police; who would be surprised, given the events of the last few decades, that religion and culture, common to these folk, would bring a sense of strength and purpose to their intifada...if I now have your permission to use that word?
    What the official Police Union in France has to say?
    It would be good to know, but as a large organization they may feel a greater responsibility to keep peace between the various groups that make up France; what is most important, too, is the factuality of their comments on the matter.


    The French Intifada intensifies according to a small French Christian police union

    Now, that's a nice title!
    A better title might read: "anti-police violence continues to intensify in various regions of France: small French police union suggests it may be motivated by the faith of the youth responsible."

    I find it somewhat arbitrary that you feel the religious faith of the youth involved is unimportant, particularly considering a certain recent proclivity to extremism; but that you ensure the religion which may, or may not be, shared by the unionists becomes a stain on their credibility. Considering that 'Christian' is a more common epithet in Europe than it is vigorous faith for many, I'm not sure you're making a reasonable distinction.



    In Patronicum sub Siblesz

  4. #4
    Isnogood's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Telegraph
    However, not all officers on the ground accept that essentially secular interpretation. Michel Thoomis, the secretary general of the hardline Action Police trade union
    Well, according to http://www.actionpolice.com/ his name is Thooris and according to information from wiki:
    "He is also a member of the far-right Mouvement pour la France (*)political party."
    , which might make his interpretation of the matter seem less genuine (if membership in aforementioned organisation is not enough).

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri
    Is France on the path to civil war or perhaps these are only temporary problems, nothing to worry about? Perhaps the situation will continue as a low-intensity insurgency against the French state, who knows.
    France is neither on the "road to civil war", nor are these "temporary problems,that are nothing to worry about".
    The situation of immigrants or their descendents in the "banlieues" are bad and worsening, as they have not enough possibilities and ways to participate in the french society,these areas degenerate in many ways, but I think there are many treatises more eloquent on the matter pointing out risks and possible solutions exhaustively.

    I can not ,however,in any way follow the conclusion of immigrant=islamist,even apart from not considering the perspective of this source as credible.

    In short, it's rubbish.

    *- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_France
    Last edited by Isnogood; October 05, 2006 at 05:41 AM.

  5. #5
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    It isn't only the Action Police who are talking about the rrise of Islamism in the French suburbs, you know.

    While I realize that the situation is far more complex than a matter of islamist insurgency, it would be pure idiocy to side-step it all together.

    The point is: Areas of French cities have become states within states, and are completely opposed to the authority of the French state. These neighbourhoods are largely non-French and Muslim. The areas are also characterized by high unemployment, rampant criminality and poverty. Now, it might be just a coincidence, that the people beating up the cops are Muslims. But there's more to it, methinks.

    The fact is that in France, as in so many other Western European countries, an ethnic underclass has been developing away from the public eye in isolation from the rest of society. Perhaps the issue could have been tackled earlier, perhaps this situation was inevitable. But to simply say that there are no religious/ethnic/identity factors playing a role is turning a blind eye to a bad situation that will most certainly worsen with time.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    What is happening in France isn't that different from what happened in LA in the buildup to 1992.
    This has as much to do with Islam as the LA riots had to do with being black/white.
    But of course there wil always be a handfull of racists who wil blame these things on race/religion, and scores of (semi-)racists who wil echo their opinion.


    Just to set one thing straight: these "muslim extremists" don't attack christians, atheists or jews from their own neighbourhood, do they?
    Last edited by Erik; October 05, 2006 at 06:23 AM.



  7. #7
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    It is good, that Erik, with a couple of sweeping statements, has cleared the mess up. Well done Erik, we are in your debt.

    However.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    Just to set one thing straight: these "muslim extremists" don't attack christians, atheists or jews from their own neighbourhood, do they?
    According to Amir Taheri, the Muslim writer, some French Muslims are calling for local religious autonomy, as in the Ottoman empire, and it already exists in some parts of France where radicals have imposed Islamic dress, chased away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork and shut down “places of sin” such as cinemas.
    Sorry.

    EDIT: I just have to ask: which is Amir Taheri, a racist or a semi-racist? Or perhaps a Quasi-racist?
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Trey's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    This has as much to do with Islam as the LA riots had to do with being black/white.
    But of course there wil always be a handfull of racists who wil blame these things on race/religion, and scores of (semi-)racists who wil echo their opinion.
    The LA riots had everything to do with race! Class, of course, was a huge factor, but race was just as big if not bigger. If race wasn't a problem, why did the mobs only attack whites and burn down Korea town, but for the most part left blacks alone? Don't say stuff like that if you don't know what you're talking about. My grandpa was there, right in the middle of it.
    for-profit death machine.

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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey
    The LA riots had everything to do with race! Class, of course, was a huge factor, but race was just as big if not bigger. If race wasn't a problem, why did the mobs only attack whites and burn down Korea town, but for the most part left blacks alone? Don't say stuff like that if you don't know what you're talking about. My grandpa was there, right in the middle of it.
    So the LA riots happened because having a black skin makes you more prone to violence?
    Every group of blacks wil eventually turn to violence, is that it?

    Of course race played a role (I never said it didn't), but it wasn't the SOURCE for the problems.
    Just like religion isn't the SOURCE of the problems in France.

    When you exclude one group of people from your society then this wil always cause problems.
    It doesn't matter if the excluded group are backs, muslims, mexicans, gypsies or whatever.
    The social exclusion is to blame, not the race or religion of the excluded group.



  10. #10
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    So the LA riots happened because having a black skin makes you more prone to violence?
    Every group of blacks wil eventually turn to violence, is that it?
    Yes, that's what I am saying. Of course not! But the number reason the riots were started is because the blacks in the city thought that the police were racist towards blacks,(which I am sure was true), so of course the main reason for the riots was race and equal treatment.
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Trey
    Yes, that's what I am saying. Of course not! But the number reason the riots were started is because the blacks in the city thought that the police were racist towards blacks,(which I am sure was true), so of course the main reason for the riots was race and equal treatment.
    I fully agree with you about LA then.

    But how is the situation in France any different then?
    I think of you replace "black" with "muslim" you can pretty much copy-paste your description.
    Last edited by Erik; October 06, 2006 at 08:46 AM.



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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    some French Muslims are calling for local religious autonomy
    OMG OMG OMG!!!!
    SOME muslims want independant!!!

    Yes, I suppose you are right about the "civil war" then, Wilpuri



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    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik
    OMG OMG OMG!!!!
    SOME muslims want independant!!!

    Yes, I suppose you are right about the "civil war" then, Wilpuri
    Where did I describe the situation as a civil war?
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri
    Where did I describe the situation as a civil war?
    The title of the article you linked to is called:
    "Muslims are waging civil war against us, claims police union"

    But if you must, let's discuss "intifada" (which implies civil war, but never mind) and not "civil war" then.

    Ok, so how does the opinion of _some_ muslims make this an intifada?



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    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    heh yes a riot based on the Rodney King verdict and coining the phrase "can we all get along"? was not a race riot...
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  16. #16
    Isnogood's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri
    It isn't only the Action Police who are talking about the rise of Islamism in the French suburbs, you know.
    It would still be helpful for the credibility of your thesis, if you could find oppinions from elswhere than the more extreme sides of the political spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri
    While I realize that the situation is far more complex than a matter of islamist insurgency, it would be pure idiocy to side-step it all together.
    I for one have not seen an islamist insurgency in France.During the riots I have neither heard "allahu akhbar" very often, nor seen the green banner of Islam.What I've seen is a lot of youths in the typical urban ghetto uniform and striking the same poses as I've seen youths do everywhere in urban areas of industrialised nations, judging by this it would even make more sense to blame american pop-culture, which also would be rather far-fetched.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri
    The point is: Areas of French cities have become states within states, and are completely opposed to the authority of the French state. These neighbourhoods are largely non-French and Muslim. The areas are also characterized by high unemployment, rampant criminality and poverty. Now, it might be just a coincidence, that the people beating up the cops are Muslims. But there's more to it, methinks.

    But to simply say that there are no religious/ethnic/identity factors playing a role is turning a blind eye to a bad situation that will most certainly worsen with time.
    For me the problem with such statetments is the attempt to lay the blame for this development solely, primarily or even to a large degree on Islam.While I do think that racism, difference in culture and in this context also the different religions might be components adding to the widening rift between the immigrants in the banlieues and the mainstream french society, the problem is primarily social in nature.
    I think, the development in the french suburbs is not so much a "talibanisation" but rather comparable with the the favellas in Brazil, admittedly a very extreme example.There too, are whole districts, the police doesn't dare to enter for fear of being attacked, which is why I tend to agree with the official french point of view, that the attacks on police patrols are "essentially criminal in nature, with crime bosses on the estates fighting back against tough tactics", rather than an "Intifada"
    While on the other hand,it is rather obvious that radical ideologies prosper under these conditions, it serves no one (but them and their ideological counterparts) to put them out of proportion, we are still speaking of fractions of percentages.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    The point is: Areas of French cities have become states within states, and are completely opposed to the authority of the French state. These neighbourhoods are largely non-French and Muslim. The areas are also characterized by high unemployment, rampant criminality and poverty. Now, it might be just a coincidence, that the people beating up the cops are Muslims. But there's more to it, methinks.
    And you have the testicular glands-Garb. to accuse me of xenophobia?
    France's fault.
    It accepted these immigrants, time to deal with them with all the humanist values of the west that people trumpet about so much.
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; October 05, 2006 at 09:07 PM.





  18. #18
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSoldat
    And you have the testicular glands-Garb. to accuse me of xenophobia?
    France's fault.
    It accepted these immigrants, time to deal with them with all the humanist values of the west that people trumpet about so much.
    I don't think I've ever called anyone a xenophobe. But you are a chauvinist and an imperialist. It would be stupid for you to refute that. But I wouldn't be surprised.
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  19. #19

    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    I don't think I've ever called anyone a xenophobe. But you are a chauvinist and an imperialist. It would be stupid for you to refute that. But I wouldn't be surprised.
    It would be stupid of me to defend myself from insults?
    Your notions of intelligence are quite strange.
    And yes, I support Russia in all endeavors which I see as potentially fruitful.
    I take it you (the anti chauvinist) must be in favor of Finland sending out it's entire GDP to Africa to help out over there.
    And xenophobe and chauvinist are close enough in practice to be regarded as variations of the same concept.
    Yes, a month late, but nonetheless needed.
    Feel free to continue makiong worthless and arrogant exclamations about my stupidity now.





  20. #20

    Default Re: The French Intifada intensifies

    this is what france gets for treating non-whites (muslims especially) as second class citizens and shunts them off into grimey suburbs of paris and keeps them away from the rich tourist areas.

    The problems that britain is facing pale in comparison to what france is in the midst of.

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