Poll: The future of Deku Scrubs, Old VS New

[Apani]

There has been quite a debate regarding the new proposed design for Deku Scrubs, with some people praising the new take on them and others defending those we already have.

So, with this thread I just want to see the popular opinion on what path we should take; we can use this topic for the discussion as well, leaving the Announcements thread free.

[Cameron Shutters]

There should be a third option; a compromise between the two which is what I've been suggesting. That is different legs and lighter coloration. But for now I suppose I'll side with the new designs.

Because some people have already voted though I wouldn't suggest adding that now, if it's even possible.

[Apani]

I try to make decision pools as bipolar as possible, I find them most decisive this way.

Anyways, my opinion for siding with the original ones: they are faithful to canon design and reflect their HTW lore well. The new models look flat; also, the left one has the head of an hippocampus, the right one makes me think of those creepy Troll dolls.

[Cameron Shutters]

I try to make decision pools as bipolar as possible, I find them most decisive this way.

I find that it poorly represents the wishes of the community, but I can understand why you'd do that. If the poll didn't do a good job of showing the community's overall feelings on the matter and everyone just chose compromise we'd most likely accomplish nothing.

My opinion for siding with the new ones is the same Apani's for siding with the old: they are faithful to canon design and reflect their HTW lore well. The old models look ridiculous and undetailed; also, the look cartoony to a point where the don't seem like something that could exist in HTW comfortably while still seeming quite silly.

Although this argument appears to have created a bit of a rift in the community, I'm glad we're having this discussion. It shows that this particular community is more than fanboys and yesmen and that for the most part the community seems to be passionate yet civil individuals. There have been too many forums and other websites where dissenting opinions are met with insults and flame wars rather than intelligent and helpful discussion, so I'm a bit impressed.

[Aleatorio]

I side with the new desings. Yeah, Deku are supposed to be angry cowards and the current desing fits that, but I don´t think that giving then a more serious and dark fell will change that much what they are in that sense. They will still be angry cowards, the difference is that they will be less silly-looking angry cowards, and I think that fits HTW better.

[Apani]

Cameron, could you provide me one link to those canon Deku you speak of? Because to me the current Deku look very faithful to these: http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Deku_Scrub
Also, I find their models perfect right now: the new ones seem overdetailed instead.

[Cameron Shutters]

Cameron, could you provide me one link to those canon Deku you speak of? Because to me the current Deku look very faithful to these: http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Deku_Scrub
Also, I find their models perfect right now: the new ones seem overdetailed instead.

The new Deku look very faithful to those too with the exception of the legs. As I've said before they're nearly identical to the ones from OoT and MM; the only differences are the legs, coloration, and fewer leaves on the head. And let's not forget the second part: reflecting HTW lore well, which throws out the ridiculous characteristics of many other races such as the Gorons.

[Duke Serkol]

There should be a third option; a compromise between the two which is what I've been suggesting. That is different legs and lighter coloration.

I try to make decision pools as bipolar as possible, I find them most decisive this way.

I find that it poorly represents the wishes of the community, but I can understand why you'd do that.

Another reason why adding more than two options could get messy is that I too would prefer a mix... but a different one. I'd go for the old models with the next textures. And there could be other opinions on how to combine them still.

[Dragus]

Ultimately this project is a free contribution of Nephalim, and serves for the purpose of him having fun making it and nothing else. However, that being said, if our opinions are being observed here, I would probably be happy either way. I suppose if a third option were added that made use of a bit of both styles, I would go that route in voting.

But above all, whatever is most fun and least tiresome for Nephalim is what I would feel best about.

[Emrys]

I myself shall abstain from voting. My reasoning is that I will support whatever Neph ultimately decides and glean as much enjoyment from this unpaid piece of work... Who am I to dictate what he does or how he does it? It is his.

[Dragus]

I myself shall abstain from voting.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

All of my silliness aside though, the idea of a submod allowing the use of the old models for the players who want them is a fine suggestion should our friend Neph proceed with implementing his cool new designs.

[GoldenGohma]

One thing that intrigued me about the old scrubs was the possibility for a variety of units that don't fit into "Real is brown" just by virtue of the variety of plants that they could be based on. I am very curious to see what the more "realistic" designs will be like for the rest of the tribe.

My primary complaints about the new design stems mostly about figuring out how much of the scrub is plant and how much is animal. The model on the left seems like it is lacking the "chlorophyll" department, somewhat lacking in leaves - more like a dead plant. . . but then again, do the Deku even get food from their leaves or are they just natural camouflage? Animals expend a lot of energy moving about, could chlorophyll even support such an animal?

[Jakeford]

Well I just voted and as of the time of me writing it the poll is a perfect 50 50. It seems there are plenty of people on both sides. I personally think that there should be a compromise, the old designs I like more and feel that they represent cannon more but I would have no problem with some changes making them look a little more regal, that would make everybody happy.

Edit: I want to explain why I never had a problem with Naphalim redesigning things to be darker before the deku scrubs. You see the thing is that I could still take the Deku seriously and felt there design didn't really look silly, it just looked non-threatening. The new Deku scrubs on the other hand look threatening, if I came across one of those in the forest I would probably be frightened or at least uneased. Races like the Anouki on the other hand just looked completely silly and stupid, they would defiantly not fit within Hyrule total war, the new Deku did fit into Hyrule total war just fine.
The Koroks were actually kind of creepy in the WW and it made sense to make them taller because of the Total war gameplay. They actually do just look like a taller, more realistic version of what they did, in fact they lack the (probably unintentional) creepiness that the Wind Waker Koroks have.

Another reason I think that people didn't like the new Deku design is because Deku scrubs were already in Hyrule total war, while the other things Naphalim redesigned were not.

[Eldren]

Well I bet, there will be people who want one, then there will be people who want the other. So the only clear solution is to make....

Wait for it.....

A Mod! Yes that's right, a mod. One that makes the new Models back to the original Forms. With this People who want one of the options can have it. With out disappointing the other half of the fan base.

If you want to have the new Models for the Deku tribes. Just get the new release when it come out. But if you like your old favorite shrubs, Get the mod.

Problem solved.

[Emrys]

I just wanted to see the results!

But seriously... This poll means little in the long run... I will support neph's decision...

[rik209]

I like the new design on the right, except for the legs. The legs seem too much like what someone would come up with for an alien beast, not sentient plant-people in a fantasy setting.

[SirMark9]

A part of me wants to say "Why can't we have both?", with the two variants appearing in the same unit as generic soldiers or captains. Of course, knowing my track record this is probably pie in the sky that may not be possible with the current engine.

Another factor is should this redesign goes through, no doubt the rest of the Deku Tribes will be receiving a similar revision. A part of me is leaning toward the current implementation of the design because of its familiarity, but at the end of the day I would probably accept whatever decision is taken as I am not as heavily rooted in the Zelda mythos as others may be.

In the poll, if I could have voted, I would have voted for the redesign, but am mostly indifferent to the overall outcome. The power of submods may be enough to provide the classic Deku Scrub appearance while the redesign implemented in the mod itself, hopefully satisfying those who wish to maintain the current implemented model.

[Apani]

Well, that could probably be possible (see Lanayru Conscripts), but they'd make a very unpleasant contrast.

Anyways, I keep working on my rebalancement submod and I'll be focusing on the Deku right now, since their playstyle seems at risk. For now, I've made Forest, Pine and Fungi. I've given their nut an effect to demoralize enemy morale (like cow carcass) and superior boni in their terrains (see stat_ground), but I've given them abysmal stats as well, you can see it with your own eyes:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type             Forest Scrubs
dictionary       Forest_Scrubs      ; Peasant Archers
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Light
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          deku_scrub1, 60, 0, 0.275
officer         dek_flagman1
officer         dek_flagman1
officer         dek_flagman1
mount_effect     horse -4
attributes       hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_withdraw
move_speed_mod   1.3
formation        1.6, 1.6, 3.2, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         1, 1, poor_deku_nut, 50, 50, missile, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 0, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    area, prec
stat_sec         1, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, none, 45, 1.8
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  0, 0, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex   0, 4, 5, 0, 1, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      4, -1, 7, 1
stat_mental      2, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 9
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 100, 25, 65, 50, 100, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        deku, slave
era 0            deku, slave
era 1            deku, slave
era 2            deku, slave
info_pic_dir      deku
card_pic_dir      deku
;unit_info        2, 5, 1

type             Pine Scrubs
dictionary       Pine_Scrubs      ; Peasant Archers
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Light
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          pine_scrub1, 60, 0, 0.325
officer         dek_flagman1
officer         dek_flagman1
officer         dek_flagman1
mount_effect     horse -2
attributes       hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hardy, can_withdraw, hardy
move_speed_mod   1.3
formation        1.6, 1.6, 3.2, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         1, 0, poor_deku_nut, 50, 50, missile, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 0, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    area
stat_sec         1, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 30, 1.8
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  1, 0, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex   0, 4, 5, 0, 1, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        5
stat_ground      2, -1, 5, 6
stat_mental      2, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 9
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 150, 25, 65, 50, 150, 4, 150
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        deku
era 0            deku
era 1            deku
era 2            deku
info_pic_dir      deku
card_pic_dir      deku
;unit_info        2, 5, 1

type             Fungi Scrubs
dictionary       Fungi_Scrubs      ; Peasant Archers
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Light
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Fungi_scrub, 45, 0, 0.275
officer         dek_flagman1
officer         dek_flagman1
officer         dek_flagman1
mount_effect     horse -4
attributes       hide_anywhere, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hardy, can_withdraw
move_speed_mod   1.43
formation        1.6, 1.6, 3.2, 3.2, 3, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         1, 1, poor_deku_nut, 50, 50, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    area
stat_sec         1, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, none, 45, 1.8
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  0, 0, 0, flesh
;stat_armour_ex   0, 4, 5, 0, 1, 0, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      4, -1, 5, 1
stat_mental      2, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 250, 25, 65, 50, 250, 4, 250
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        deku
era 0            deku
era 1            deku
era 2            deku
info_pic_dir      deku
card_pic_dir      deku
;unit_info        2, 5, 1

For a comparison, here are some Hylians:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type             Town Guards
dictionary       Town_Guards      ; Italian Militia
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Light
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Town_Guards, 60, 0, 1.9125, 0.3
officer         hyl_flagman3
mount_effect     horse +4
attributes       hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
move_speed_mod   0.8
formation        1.0, 1.0, 2.0, 2.0, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         1, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 90, 0.6
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    light_spear
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 1, 8, metal
;stat_armour_ex   0, 4, 5, 7, 3, 6, 6, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        14
stat_ground      -1, -3, 1, -2
stat_mental      5, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 584, 701, 50, 930, 1752, 4, 480
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        hylian, slave
era 0            hylian, slave
era 1            hylian, slave
era 2            hylian, slave
info_pic_dir      hylian
card_pic_dir      hylian
;unit_info        7, 0, 9

type             Swordsmen Recruits
dictionary       Swordsmen_Recruits      ; Swordsmen Militia
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Swordsmen_Recruits, 48, 0, 0.95
officer         hyl_flagman1
attributes       hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_ukpeep_unit
move_speed_mod   0.95
formation        1.2, 1.0, 2.4, 2.0, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 30, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  6, 5, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex   5, 7, 0, 0, 7, 6, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        7
stat_ground      0, -2, 2, -1
stat_mental      5, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 608, 730, 155, 930, 1824, 2, 304
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        hylian
era 0            hylian
era 1            hylian
era 2            hylian
info_pic_dir      hylian
card_pic_dir      hylian
;unit_info        11, 0, 18

type             Mounted Recruits
dictionary       Mounted_Recruits      ; Alan Light Cavalry
category         cavalry
class            light
voice_type       Light
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade_cavalry
soldier          Mounted_Recruits, 24, 0, 0.95
officer         hyl_flagman4
mount            medium horse brawler
attributes       hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
move_speed_mod     0.85
formation        2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square
stat_health      1, 3
stat_pri         5, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 45, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  6, 6, 0, leather
;stat_armour_ex   4, 0, 0, 0, 6, 3, 3, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        12
stat_ground      0, -1, -2, 0
stat_mental      8, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 20
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 672, 432, 120, 95, 336, 2, 336
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        hylian
era 0            hylian
era 1            hylian
era 2            hylian
info_pic_dir      hylian
card_pic_dir      hylian
;unit_info        11, 0, 13

type             Hylian Infantry
dictionary       Hylian_Infantry      ; Dismounted Gothic Knights
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Hylian_Infantry, 60, 0, 1.46875, 0.5
officer          Hyrulean_Knights
officer         hyl_flagman1
mount_effect     horse +1
attributes       hide_forest, can_withdraw
move_speed_mod     0.9
formation        1.4, 1.0, 2.8, 2.0, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         9, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 75, 0.66
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  11, 6, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex   10, 0, 0, 0, 4, 0, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        11
stat_ground      -1, -3, 0, -2
stat_mental      9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1020, 408, 144, 594, 1530, 2, 464
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        hylian
era 0            hylian
era 1            hylian
era 2            hylian
info_pic_dir      hylian
card_pic_dir      hylian
;unit_info        14, 0, 14

type             Hylian Crossbowmen
dictionary       Hylian_Crossbowmen      ; Pavise Crossbowmen
category         infantry
class            missile
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_none
banner holy      crusade
soldier          Hylian_Crossbowmen, 60, 0, 0.775, 0.35
officer          Hyrulean_Knights
officer         hyl_flagman2
attributes       hide_forest, can_withdraw, crossbow
move_speed_mod     0.95
formation        1.4, 1.4, 1.4, 1.4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 2
stat_pri         6, 1, average_light_crossbow_bolt, 100, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
;stat_pri_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr    area
stat_sec         2, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 30, 1
;stat_sec_ex      0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  5, 5, 0, metal
;stat_armour_ex   5, 7, 0, 0, 3, 6, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, -2, 1, -1
stat_mental      7, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  18
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 416, 576, 65, 50, 208, 2, 208
armour_ug_levels 0
ownership        hylian
era 0            hylian
era 1            hylian
era 2            hylian
info_pic_dir      hylian
card_pic_dir      hylian
;unit_info        6, 12, 14

[Dragus]

Emrys: Was there not a "View Poll Results" button enabled from the beginning? I didn't get to see the thread until around an hour after it was posted.

Mark: Well-said. Submods are a great thing. And I would probably actually have difficulty deciding between which models to use, as I love both styles.

[Emrys]

@Dragus
I actually don't know...