So ... scorpions?

[Kenny Works]

Yeah, scorpions? I fired up RSII today and started a new Roman campaign. I'm used to the garrison script so I anticipated that I've building some ballistas and other siege equipment. But what about the light machines. They're clearly marked as not useful for troops, and I don't think you can use them to open a gate or take out a wall, so what do you use them for? Are they even worth building?

One reason I ask is because I just took Carthage and the area surrounding it. Carthage - what's left of it - attacked me again, laying siege to one of my "governor only" cities. Their army consisted of a couple of units of spearmen, some light infantry, a troop of elephants, and like eight units of these light scorpions (the name may be different now in RSII).

I decided to hero it out and fight it on the battle map, but the army just sat there, firing these light machines again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Nothing moved. I finally lost because I surrendered due to boredom.

Do they have any real use? Do you build them?

[High Fist]

Do they have any real use?

Why yes, they're effective at boring the enemy into submission.

They're cool more than anything else. Litholobos or repeating ballista are more effective against troops. I haven't used them much but they're enjoyable.

[SD_Man]

I like stone throwing ballista more. Their accurate, effective, and dat bounce!
Repeater Ballista is definitely better than Scorpion but Litholobos are just so slow and inaccurate, especially with "fire" ammo.

[High Fist]

Fun though.

Y'know the way I uses forts a lot to defend chokepoints? If there is a bridging point across a river, I like to hold them there with the fort, then attack across the river with the siege engines. They just sit there and take it, and your machines are fairly close to them so they're accurate enough.

[the man, the myth, the legend]

I use them with my Romans, two units of the scorpions, in a full stack against the barbarian hordes, I usually spend their ammo blasting the enemy before engaging them, I've racked up 300-400 kills each with those things. Sometimes it gets boring though when the enemy just stands there while wheir ranks get shredded. They are useless though, more battles than not.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Long Range - Elephants......otherwise a unit is better.

Not much used in every day historical battles - mostly siege & river assaults.

Stone throwing stuff should be siege only - not practicable on the battlefield and another gamey element.

[dvk901]

This is one area I was not pleased with in RS2 at all. These units are expensive and clunky, and I had an idea to make them better\more useful during development, but it got shot down. Now, since I seem to be the only one left, I guess I get to do whatever I please.

Anyway, there are a number of problems with all of the equipment units. The worst one is how they work on the battlefield in terms of the way the units move. If you have more than one piece of equipment in a unit.....say, a unit with two or three onagers\Lithobolos....the unit has to move as if it is tied together with ropes. This results in the unit getting stuck on battlefield objects, or, even dumber, on itself as it tries to go where you tell it to go. Sometimes the unit gets so stuck it will not be able to move at all, and if it tries to fire, will actually shoot itself because one of the pieces of equipment is in the way.

I suggested to solve this by limiting the unit to one piece of equipment, and tested it a bit to see how it would work. But the team didn't like the idea, and I never had a lot of time to REALLY test it out. However, I have been testing this, and I have to say that it works marvelously. I made each unit have one piece of equipment (except the large Litholbolos, which I have to figure out why the game won't let me give the unit only one), and gave the unit 40 men. This results in much 'cleaner' movement on the battlefield, no getting stuck with each other, and a much easier time navigating those areas on the battlefield where the equipment is not allowed to go. Also, as the equipment is configured with a 'mass', the units seem to be able to move it\them much easier and quicker.

I also gave each unit larger damage figures and more ammo to make up for the loss of the other pieces of equipment, so when attacking a city wall, using one Lithobolos doesn't take any longer to bring down a wall than having two or more in the unit. Having 40 men in the unit as well, as opposed to 8-12, makes this a more viable unit once you are done using them. So it's not just a throw-away unit, and with better stats, the men actually hold their own and fight well enough to pin cavalry or other units. So they are much more useful and 'worth the money'.

The whole issue is one that CA has apparently not dealt with yet, as I don't feel this equipment getting stuck on things is 'fun'.

As far as the use and\or the usefulness of scorpions, I rather think these weapons were, even in reality, no more than a 'shock and awe' tactic. The projectile was vicious...could kill even multiple men....and just seeing it skewer someone next to you was probably a pretty frightening sight. So the weapon itself has good uses, but as the OP says (and others) the AI is not very bright when it comes to being pummeled by distant artillery and stuff. I have even tried to solve that issue by changing commands in the formations so that the AI armies are ALWAYS set in an 'attack' mode....but it seems to just get turned off as soon as the battle starts.

[Alavaria]

Anyway, there are a number of problems with all of the equipment units. The worst one is how they work on the battlefield in terms of the way the units move. If you have more than one piece of equipment in a unit.....say, a unit with two or three onagers\Lithobolos....the unit has to move as if it is tied together with ropes. This results in the unit getting stuck on battlefield objects, or, even dumber, on itself as it tries to go where you tell it to go. Sometimes the unit gets so stuck it will not be able to move at all, and if it tries to fire, will actually shoot itself because one of the pieces of equipment is in the way.

Oh don't remind me of the horrors of trying to use the Large Stone Throwing Ballistae on Roma

It always felt like a gamble if they could get to a decent position, and that was with just two engines. And forget about trying to use them on a moving enemy...

As far as the use and\or the usefulness of scorpions, I rather think these weapons were, even in reality, no more than a 'shock and awe' tactic. The projectile was vicious...could kill even multiple men....and just seeing it skewer someone next to you was probably a pretty frightening sight. So the weapon itself has good uses, but as the OP says (and others) the AI is not very bright when it comes to being pummeled by distant artillery and stuff. I have even tried to solve that issue by changing commands in the formations so that the AI armies are ALWAYS set in an 'attack' mode....but it seems to just get turned off as soon as the battle starts.

Isn't this due to how the AI "guesses" relative strengths in terms of missile units? If you are weaker in ranged attack, it tends to want you to march into it's arrows. But if you have siege engines, it doesn't calculate them in the appropriate manner...

[dvk901]

Oh don't remind me of the horrors of trying to use the Large Stone Throwing Ballistae on Roma

It always felt like a gamble if they could get to a decent position, and that was with just two engines. And forget about trying to use them on a moving enemy...

Isn't this due to how the AI "guesses" relative strengths in terms of missile units? If you are weaker in ranged attack, it tends to want you to march into it's arrows. But if you have siege engines, it doesn't calculate them in the appropriate manner...

Yes.....just another flaw in the AI, which seems not to 'know' why it's troops are being burned or skewered by these units. Since the AI perceives 'threat' based on the strength or stats of a particular unit, my guess is that a small sized unit whose men have low stats (regardless of the equipment stats) may perceived as a low threat. Still, once they do attack, their units (usually cavalry or a flanking infantry unit), do always seem to go after the equipment units. Odd.

[Alavaria]

Yes.....just another flaw in the AI, which seems not to 'know' why it's troops are being burned or skewered by these units. Since the AI perceives 'threat' based on the strength or stats of a particular unit, my guess is that a small sized unit whose men have low stats (regardless of the equipment stats) may perceived as a low threat. Still, once they do attack, their units (usually cavalry or a flanking infantry unit), do always seem to go after the equipment units. Odd.

Oh. Well it's not just that the unit has few men in it. But if you were to be weaker in archers and march up to the AI, it will kill you. With siege engines, you shoot from outside their range with "weak" attacks but get to shoot ALL your ammo instead of shooting two arrows and then dying. Even if the AI notices the siege engine's high stats, there's only a few of them anyway.

As the soldiers are not heavy infantry, the AI will try to kill them first, like it does archers. Of course if you are able to use them because the AI is dumb, then you can use all their ammo and just move them somewhere safe in the back.

[Kenny Works]

This is one area I was not pleased with in RS2 at all. These units are expensive and clunky, and I had an idea to make them better\more useful during development, but it got shot down. Now, since I seem to be the only one left, I guess I get to do whatever I please.

Anyway, there are a number of problems with all of the equipment units. The worst one is how they work on the battlefield in terms of the way the units move. If you have more than one piece of equipment in a unit.....say, a unit with two or three onagers\Lithobolos....the unit has to move as if it is tied together with ropes. This results in the unit getting stuck on battlefield objects, or, even dumber, on itself as it tries to go where you tell it to go. Sometimes the unit gets so stuck it will not be able to move at all, and if it tries to fire, will actually shoot itself because one of the pieces of equipment is in the way.

I suggested to solve this by limiting the unit to one piece of equipment, and tested it a bit to see how it would work. But the team didn't like the idea, and I never had a lot of time to REALLY test it out. However, I have been testing this, and I have to say that it works marvelously. I made each unit have one piece of equipment (except the large Litholbolos, which I have to figure out why the game won't let me give the unit only one), and gave the unit 40 men. This results in much 'cleaner' movement on the battlefield, no getting stuck with each other, and a much easier time navigating those areas on the battlefield where the equipment is not allowed to go. Also, as the equipment is configured with a 'mass', the units seem to be able to move it\them much easier and quicker.

I also gave each unit larger damage figures and more ammo to make up for the loss of the other pieces of equipment, so when attacking a city wall, using one Lithobolos doesn't take any longer to bring down a wall than having two or more in the unit. Having 40 men in the unit as well, as opposed to 8-12, makes this a more viable unit once you are done using them. So it's not just a throw-away unit, and with better stats, the men actually hold their own and fight well enough to pin cavalry or other units. So they are much more useful and 'worth the money'.

The whole issue is one that CA has apparently not dealt with yet, as I don't feel this equipment getting stuck on things is 'fun'.

As far as the use and\or the usefulness of scorpions, I rather think these weapons were, even in reality, no more than a 'shock and awe' tactic. The projectile was vicious...could kill even multiple men....and just seeing it skewer someone next to you was probably a pretty frightening sight. So the weapon itself has good uses, but as the OP says (and others) the AI is not very bright when it comes to being pummeled by distant artillery and stuff. I have even tried to solve that issue by changing commands in the formations so that the AI armies are ALWAYS set in an 'attack' mode....but it seems to just get turned off as soon as the battle starts.

Great answer.

Really, this is a wonderful work. Maybe someday when I retire and have more free time, I'll finally be able appreciate your accomplishment.

[SD_Man]

Well if the scorpion was made into one then it should fire more like a gatling gun. IIRC the Romans had 64 individual units of scorpions per legion so I could only imagine the constant bombardment that would come from this artillery piece.

Can rate of fire be adjusted in the EDU though?