Aeimnestus Ancient Battle Realism submod (Version 1.3.1 - compatible with DeI 0.75c))

[Aeimnestus]

Woop 1.3 released, many thanks, I look forward to trying it out in the near future.

Here's a thought I had: it is possible to increase the rate as which missiles become effective as range decreases? For so example, a volley of javelins thrown into the back of a unit at point blank range would cause moderate losses and probably a quick rout? I was playing a settlement defense and using levies to ambush heavier units in such ways, but it doesn't inflict any losses. I like them being mainly just a 'threat' at long range, as the new version encourages, but at very close range I would expect a volley of projectiles to really impact the unit's men and morale, i.e. they realise that if they keep fighting while being blasted from behind with arrows, they will lose, and hence chose to retreat.

All just thoughts I had recently. Anyway, keep up the awesome work, this has quickly become my favourite way to play Rome, so thanks for bringing this fine submod to us!

This is already the case, at close range missile units gain almost double the killing power. Of course, the effectiveness of ranged attacks doesn't just rely on the distance. There are several types of throwing spears in the game, and from the top of my head DeI has for example assigned the most basic "wooden javelin" to leves - basically a pointed stick- which just doesn't do too much vs heavily armoured units. If you'd use a more professional unit like velites which have much better throwing spears, you'd get much better results. I personally like to flank with a unit or 3 velites, and when you get them behind the enemy battleline they wreak havoc if left alone.
It's the same with bows, your basic greek bow levy just isn't effective at killing heavy infantry, they are meant to kill off skirmishers and light cavalry. More elite (eastern) archers with composite bows are significantly better at killing armoured targets. I'd love it if ranged attacks from the rear could give an extra morale debuff though, but I don't know how to implement this (if it is possible at all).

ps. I discovered several unintended balance issues in my last test of 1.3, (most notably some garrison units not reinforcing and the increased gate capture time not working as I wanted (the gate becomes neutral just as fast as before, it just takes 2 minutes to then fully capture it, while my intend was to make it go to neutral much slower so it continues firing for longer) and thorax swordmen vs rorarii resulting in a 0 casualties indefinite standoff) so I will be releasing a 1.3.1 with small bugfixes/balance changes within a couple of days.

[Aeimnestus]

1.3.1 changelog:

- Fixed garrison units not reinforcing.
- Rebalanced fatigue penalties: rather than only reducing the offense of units as they tire, defenses are now greatly diminished as well. Fresh inferior units will be able to overwhelm exhausted elite units.
- Rebalanced some odd unit match-ups.
- Increased bow and sling ammo, to allow ranged units to keep a more active role in the longer battles. Reload time is slightly increased.
- Reduced javelin accuracy slightly, increased javelin damage slightly.
- A big nerf to warhounds: they are now a very small, very vulnerable support unit, mostly effective to chase down routers. To compensate, their cost and upkeep has been reduced.

[Schiehaven]

Thanks! Sounds interesting, so I will be trying it out!

[Aeimnestus]

I forgot to include the following 1.3.1 change in the notes:

- Roman units with the cycled line ability (passively reduces fatigue) now loose this ability when their centurion is killed.

[Schiehaven]

I do like the effect of projectiles on units, I notice the flanking can make quick work out of the enemy's army.

However, I'm bit in doubt on the kill rate as someone else mentioned. I just took over a barbarian city with 2100 units vs 1200 units of theirs. I moved my hoplites in well placed position with formation and behind them or left or right from them, there are my javelins to flank the enemy (urban setting). I took 20 units as loss in a match that took my 20 minutes and I killed 1200 of their units. I think 80% of them are killed in battle, not during their rout. So I think the phalenx should be rebalanced. I can't imagine 240 units clashing at a plalenx for 20 minutes and not even kill one of the phalenx units haha

Nevertheless, a nice mod. Although, I might just conquer Europe with just only hoplites?

[Aeimnestus]

I do like the effect of projectiles on units, I notice the flanking can make quick work out of the enemy's army.

However, I'm bit in doubt on the kill rate as someone else mentioned. I just took over a barbarian city with 2100 units vs 1200 units of theirs. I moved my hoplites in well placed position with formation and behind them or left or right from them, there are my javelins to flank the enemy (urban setting). I took 20 units as loss in a match that took my 20 minutes and I killed 1200 of their units. I think 80% of them are killed in battle, not during their rout. So I think the phalenx should be rebalanced. I can't imagine 240 units clashing at a plalenx for 20 minutes and not even kill one of the phalenx units haha

Nevertheless, a nice mod. Although, I might just conquer Europe with just only hoplites?

Hoplites are indeed very effective vs barbarians, perhaps a bit too much. They get annihilated by pikemen though, so not much chance of conquering the world with just hoplites. That said, you did have a twice as large force, and hoplites are especially effective in city battles as they can't really be flanked. As for the barbarian casualty rate, city battles were much bloodier than field battles, as the defenders were pretty much trapped.


@ Joseph The Great:

I haven't really changed that part of the campaign AI, at least not intentionally. Could this be just a random campaign flux like when several factions declare war on you for no reason?

[Joseph The Great]

Loving the mod, thanks again. One thing I thought I'd ask you about, Aeimnestus.

1) The campaign AI seem very receptive to becoming client states. As Rome I have had Sparta, Athens, and Knossos join me as client states; even though they were already my military allies and quite safe. We did have good relations, it just seemed rather unrealistic as I was not overly powerful; mind you I was still pretty powerful; the Suebi as a match in strenght, and the Seleucids slightly stronger. And, though we had little relations, Tylis also joined me once their original Client ruler, Macedon, was destroyed.

Just a point I thought I'd raise. Thanks again.

[Cuddlefission]

While I haven't played enough campaigns to provide anything more than anecdotes, I have while running DEI and your submod had some rather odd experiences of my own with Client Stating - as Bosporus I was asked by the Makedonians to accept large amounts of cash and their servitude in exchange for peace when I had yet to actually do more than sink a fleet - and then within a matter of turns I had become client ruler of the entire Greek world and the Ptolemaioi of all people. It was strange.

[Clerc]

While I haven't played enough campaigns to provide anything more than anecdotes, I have while running DEI and your submod had some rather odd experiences of my own with Client Stating - as Bosporus I was asked by the Makedonians to accept large amounts of cash and their servitude in exchange for peace when I had yet to actually do more than sink a fleet - and then within a matter of turns I had become client ruler of the entire Greek world and the Ptolemaioi of all people. It was strange.

i have exactly the same issue playing this submod now. In an afternoon, i became the master of the whole greece, making Antigonidai, Daorsi, Knossos and Athens as client States. I never experienced that before in any campaign i did. And i am a kinda veteran

That is strange indeed I did improve the odds of the AI accepting peace the longer a war takes, but I've double checked and none of my campaign changes should have any affect on the AI's willingness to offer/accept becoming client states. Perhaps this is an issue that originates with DeI, or its just the incompetent campaign AI playing up.

I tried your mod all week-end playing as sparta (very hard/Normal). It is pretty phenomenal, really, especially the movement's range of armies and the possibility due to low casualties to use a single army to push your advantage at war. But unfortunatly there is that strange issue and another. May be you could look at it twice ?...
The other issue i met is Siege's battle AI. You can make a walk to the whole ennemy's army with a single unit of slingers placed upon walls while you capture his flag... I am a huge fan of BullGod's Slooower Battle submod. In these siege's battles each stair, each alley, each way is blocked by AI. Making the victory a real challenge... May be it's due to normal difficulty you preconise for battles. I don't know, because i didn't try hard or very hard difficulties for siege's battles...
In my opinion, the perfect submod pulling DeI to the highest would be a mix of your two submods guys... because there is a way to make them complementary, using his tactic view and your strategic point of view. It is the dream of a no modder guy, who really appreciate this game, DeI, with your (and his) hard work.
keep us the good work. And thanks very much indeed.

[smartclick]

Why is it don´t work? I have the old names.... (playing with DeI 0.75 german)

1.3 patchnotes:

Campaign:
- Overhaul of the auto-resolve function, to give casualty numbers more in line with field battles actually fought by the player.
- Renamed most of the Italian cities to more important cities in roughly the same physical location:
1. Ariminum wasn't founded yet and has been renamed to Ancona.
2. Velathri has been renamed to Arretium, an Etruscan city that grew to be the third largest Roman city in Italy.
3. Neapolis has been renamed to Capua, the second city in Italy that has no reason not to be represented.
4. Cosentia has been renamed to Croton, a far larger and more important city.
5. Brundisium has been renamed to Tarentum. While Brundisium was a large city as well, especially in the first 150 years of the game it doesn't hold the same importance as Tarentum.

[loukylouk]

Great mod! I played a few battles and I was really amazed. Which tables effect the way the units respond to taking fire. I think the idea of units slowing down and not being as effective is great but maybe the effect last too long. As in, once they are no longer under fire they are still effected for a good while. I was just hoping I could reduce that length of the effect. Thanks.

[asisss]

Both links downloading a damage file cant open them

[keito]

Both links downloading a damage file cant open them

What you are downloading is a .pack file, so there is no need to open or extract the file. Simply copy/paste the file into the appropriate data folder (...\Steam\SteamApps\common\Total War Rome II\data) and then start Rome II. In the mod manager you should see the mod.

[asisss]

What you are downloading is a .pack file, so there is no need to open or extract the file. Simply copy/paste the file into the appropriate data folder (...\Steam\SteamApps\common\Total War Rome II\data) and then start Rome II. In the mod manager you should see the mod.

THX u sir

[Ivo_Enforcer]

Absolutely phenomenal mod, Aeimnestus. It definitely belongs in DeI, if you ask me. Thanks for your work!

[Kristoff]

Aeimnestus, I'm using your submod v. 1.3.1 (great BTW) so I'm not sure if it's it or DEI itself, but is this WAD that triarii have much lower melee defence (28 IIRC) than i.e. hastati of principes (39 or so) or even auxiliary spearmen?

[Aeimnestus]

While I haven't played enough campaigns to provide anything more than anecdotes, I have while running DEI and your submod had some rather odd experiences of my own with Client Stating - as Bosporus I was asked by the Makedonians to accept large amounts of cash and their servitude in exchange for peace when I had yet to actually do more than sink a fleet - and then within a matter of turns I had become client ruler of the entire Greek world and the Ptolemaioi of all people. It was strange.

That is strange indeed I did improve the odds of the AI accepting peace the longer a war takes, but I've double checked and none of my campaign changes should have any affect on the AI's willingness to offer/accept becoming client states. Perhaps this is an issue that originates with DeI, or its just the incompetent campaign AI playing up.

Why is it don´t work? I have the old names.... (playing with DeI 0.75 german)

Since the mod is for the english version, I assume the text-based changes at least won't work on the german version.

Great mod! I played a few battles and I was really amazed. Which tables effect the way the units respond to taking fire. I think the idea of units slowing down and not being as effective is great but maybe the effect last too long. As in, once they are no longer under fire they are still effected for a good while. I was just hoping I could reduce that length of the effect. Thanks.

You can find it in the Aeim_special_ability_phases table. Version 1.3 had a 30 second duration, for 1.3.1 I had the duration increased to 45 second to compensate for the slightly lower reload speed. I'm open to suggestions if that is too long.

Absolutely phenomenal mod, Aeimnestus. It definitely belongs in DeI, if you ask me. Thanks for your work!

High praise, thank you!

Aeimnestus, I'm using your submod v. 1.3.1 (great BTW) so I'm not sure if it's it or DEI itself, but is this WAD that triarii have much lower melee defence (28 IIRC) than i.e. hastati of principes (39 or so) or even auxiliary spearmen?

Yes that is working as designed. All hoplite-style units have way too much survivability in DeI, and in the first version of this mod using the normal DeI stats units like triarii were pretty much immortal in melee because of this. All hoplites have been completely overhauled stat-wise, most notably melee defense has been severely reduced. Note however that the ingame tooltip stats do not accurately represent the true stats: Hastati have 13 melee defense, Principes have 14 melee defense, and Triarii have 11 melee defense in my submod.

You should still find them the best defensive roman unit however, holding the line longer than any other pre-marian roman unit.

[loukylouk]

That is strange indeed I did improve the odds of the AI accepting peace the longer a war takes, but I've double checked and none of my campaign changes should have any affect on the AI's willingness to offer/accept becoming client states. Perhaps this is an issue that originates with DeI, or its just the incompetent campaign AI playing up.


Thanks!

Since the mod is for the english version, I assume the text-based changes at least won't work on the german version.



You can find it in the Aeim_special_ability_phases table. Version 1.3 had a 30 second duration, for 1.3.1 I had the duration increased to 45 second to compensate for the slightly lower reload speed. I'm open to suggestions if that is too long.



High praise, thank you!



Yes that is working as designed. All hoplite-style units have way too much survivability in DeI, and in the first version of this mod using the normal DeI stats units like triarii were pretty much immortal in melee because of this. All hoplites have been completely overhauled stat-wise, most notably melee defense has been severely reduced. Note however that the ingame tooltip stats do not accurately represent the true stats: Hastati have 13 melee defense, Principes have 14 melee defense, and Triarii have 11 melee defense in my submod.

You should still find them the best defensive roman unit however, holding the line longer than any other pre-marian roman unit.

[Kristoff]

Yes that is working as designed. All hoplite-style units have way too much survivability in DeI, and in the first version of this mod using the normal DeI stats units like triarii were pretty much immortal in melee because of this. All hoplites have been completely overhauled stat-wise, most notably melee defense has been severely reduced. Note however that the ingame tooltip stats do not accurately represent the true stats: Hastati have 13 melee defense, Principes have 14 melee defense, and Triarii have 11 melee defense in my submod.
You should still find them the best defensive roman unit however, holding the line longer than any other pre-marian roman unit.

Great, thx for explanation! Just one more - is then any way to see in-game real unit stats, reflecting your changes?

[ProtoBo]

Yes that is working as designed. All hoplite-style units have way too much survivability in DeI, and in the first version of this mod using the normal DeI stats units like triarii were pretty much immortal in melee because of this. All hoplites have been completely overhauled stat-wise, most notably melee defense has been severely reduced. Note however that the ingame tooltip stats do not accurately represent the true stats: Hastati have 13 melee defense, Principes have 14 melee defense, and Triarii have 11 melee defense in my submod.

Is there any relation between tooltip stats and the actual ones then? I have been going by the tooltips to decide what units to make, so ideally we need a way to see the true numbers.
For example, I have been never buying Principles, because their stats are only those of rank 1 Hastati, who can be easily trained for less money and dramatically less upkeep. It actually they were better, I might consider going in for the 50% higher upkeep to have some.

Also, I now cannot imagine playing this game without your submod, so good job!