Aeimnestus Ancient Battle Realism submod (Version 1.3.1 - compatible with DeI 0.75c))

[Lt.Chris]

hey there, I'm loving where you are going with this, just a few parts of feedback
I had a battle where 1 unit was surrounded by 4 other units on all fronts and it took over 8 mins for any of them to kill a single solider in that surrounded unit, that normal in this mod?

[Aeimnestus]

hey there, I'm loving where you are going with this, just a few parts of feedback
I had a battle where 1 unit was surrounded by 4 other units on all fronts and it took over 8 mins for any of them to kill a single solider in that surrounded unit, that normal in this mod?

No it's not unless it was a super elite unit (example Hellenistic Royal Guard) facing off against untrained militia-equivalent units. Was this on normal battle difficulty? If you tell me which units were involved I'll take a look at them.

[Lt.Chris]

Hastati Italici being sorrunded by 4 Rome Hastati on legendary

[Aeimnestus]

Hastati Italici being sorrunded by 4 Rome Hastati on legendary

On legendary, the AI gets a significant bonus to defense (and morale). This will result in some semi-immortal units that will also not flee, and is the reason I'm advising using normal battle difficulty in my original topic. I have tested 4 Roman Hastati attacking 1 unit of Hastati Italici from all sides (and without using their pila or even charging them, just moving them into contact), and on normal battle difficulty after 5 minutes the Hastati Italici had suffered a handful of casualties and a minute later (6 minutes of fighting) they fled.

Unrelated to this, I have found that elite spear units with the phalanx ability are too survivable for my liking. In the next version of this mod I will further reduce the effectiveness of the hoplite phalanx. Historically the hoplite phalanx was outclassed in this time period in any case both by the pike phalanx and the roman manipular system. I will also reduce the amount of hoplite units available to the various hellenistic factions.

This sounds like a really interesting mod, nice work.

I have a quick question: have you done anything to alter the unit replenishment rates on the campaign map? I was thinking about the consequences of a victorious army always taking minor losses, and in my mind it should be the case that even over the course of many victories, the army should be ground down to stop you going and conquering the world without ever stopping to consolidate. But since replenishment is around 3% per turn even in the worst cases, these victorious armies effectively lose no men!

Whether that's really a problem I don't know. But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on replenishment rates in the light of the changes you've made. Many thanks.

I truly like your suggestion. While historically there are examples of single armies winning victory after victory after victory and conquering huge area's (i.e. Alexander) there are plenty more invasions that failed due to battle attrition even though the invading army won all its battles (i.e. Phyrrus and even Hannibal). I will look into this.


Summary of upcoming changes for 1.2:

- The hoplite phalanx will be greatly reduced in effectiveness.
- The Hellenistic kingdoms will have less available hoplite units in their rosters.
- Another slight across the board reduction of the running speed and charge speed of all infantry
- Boost to barbarian units: improved charge damage

I'm also looking into giving barbarian units a more loose formation and the above mentioned reduction of unit replenishment.

[ProtoBo]

Unrelated to this, I have found that elite spear units with the phalanx ability are too survivable for my liking. In the next version of this mod I will further reduce the effectiveness of the hoplite phalanx. Historically the hoplite phalanx was outclassed in this time period in any case both by the pike phalanx and the roman manipular system. I will also reduce the amount of hoplite units available to the various hellenistic factions.

Why reduce the number of units available? Will it not suffice to just make them worse? I assume your motivation is to make the AI recruit fewer hoplites to represent their decline in the period, however I still think from a gameplay point of view it is still fun to have a wide variety of units with differing quality levels. Not sure if there is any consistent way to reconcile these two motivations so I'm not suggesting anything in particular, just thought I'd raise a personal concern.

[Aeimnestus]

Why reduce the number of units available? Will it not suffice to just make them worse? I assume your motivation is to make the AI recruit fewer hoplites to represent their decline in the period, however I still think from a gameplay point of view it is still fun to have a wide variety of units with differing quality levels. Not sure if there is any consistent way to reconcile these two motivations so I'm not suggesting anything in particular, just thought I'd raise a personal concern.

Indeed, it is to prevent the AI from using armies of hoplites. There will still be enough diversity. In my option the hellenistic factions simply have too many hoplite units available to them.

Atm I've only removed the militia hoplites for Epirus, Macedon, the Seleucids, the Ptolemies and Pontus, and normal hoplites from the Seleucids and Ptolemies. For diversity, Pergamon, Massilia, Syracuse, Athens and Sparta will still have access to all their hoplite units even though its quite a-historical, but the Hellenistic successor states should mainly be using pikes.

[Aeimnestus]

Why reduce the number of units available? Will it not suffice to just make them worse? I assume your motivation is to make the AI recruit fewer hoplites to represent their decline in the period, however I still think from a gameplay point of view it is still fun to have a wide variety of units with differing quality levels. Not sure if there is any consistent way to reconcile these two motivations so I'm not suggesting anything in particular, just thought I'd raise a personal concern.

I've done some internet reseach on the continued use of spear hoplites in the hellenistic & roman era, and it seems that 'traditional' hoplites were still in use by the successor kingdoms, albeit probably not using the traditional round shield which was replaced by the thureos, so I've reverted my earlier change of removing some hoplite units from the hellenistic kingdoms.

[ProtoBo]

This sounds like a really interesting mod, nice work.

I have a quick question: have you done anything to alter the unit replenishment rates on the campaign map? I was thinking about the consequences of a victorious army always taking minor losses, and in my mind it should be the case that even over the course of many victories, the army should be ground down to stop you going and conquering the world without ever stopping to consolidate. But since replenishment is around 3% per turn even in the worst cases, these victorious armies effectively lose no men!

Whether that's really a problem I don't know. But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on replenishment rates in the light of the changes you've made. Many thanks.

[Julio-Claudian]

I'd love to use this, but I'm using the RRA mod. I take it they're not compatible?

[Aeimnestus]

I'd love to use this, but I'm using the RRA mod. I take it they're not compatible?

Unfortunately they are not.

[BullGod]

I've enjoyed battle photostory in the OP very much

[Aeimnestus]

Patchnotes 1.2:

Battle changes:
(melee)
- Reduced the effectiveness of Hoplites. In general, Hoplites now do a fair bit more damage, but are far less survivable.
- The Hoplite Phalanx has been changed considerably. It now only provides a slight bonus to frontal shield defense & shield armor, at the cost of a some offensive power (they gain more defense than they loose in attack however). The formation also provides a bonus to missile deflection from the front. However, the Hoplite Phalanx slightly tires the unit while it is active.
- All other defensive formations similar to the Hoplite Phalanx (i.e. shield wall, spear wall, testudo, fulcum etc.. ) also slightly to moderately tire the units when active.
- Phalangite (pikemen) overhaul. Their formation is now slightly more compact, they are better able to prevent other melee units from penetrating their pikes, and they do more damage. My goal has been that normal pike units are able to beat Hastati frontally, and can hold their own against heavier units. Elite pike units are pretty much unbeatable from the front. All pike units now destroy equivalently tiered Hoplite units.
- The Pike Phalanx formation has a 15% chance to deflect incoming missiles from the front, but fatigue regeneration has been reduced to 40% of what is was. The bracing value has been reduced to reduce cavalry units 'bouncing off' when charging in the rear.
- The fatigue regeneration of cycled line has been reduced to roughly 30% of what it was.
- Unit bracing decreases the more a unit tires. This makes cavalry charges more effective the more tired their target is.
- Infantry movement has been decreased across the board.

- All barbarian unit stats have been tweaked. Significant charge boost, and high attack value, but not so much staying power. Their looser formations and less armor allow for higher running and especially charge speed than the infantry units of 'civilized' nations. As a result, armies loosing vs barbarians are also more easily chased down, resulting in higher average casualties.
- Barbarian formations are now much less orderly. They still fight in formations as they did historically, but within the formations there is less regularity.

(ranged)
- Slingers and Archers have received a slight damage boost to compensate for the Phalanx changes.
- Poisoned arrows are now much more effective, but less units have them. Look for them on 1 nomadic unit, 1 african unit, and 1 gallic unit.

Campaign changes:
- Overhaul of army/navy replenishment: Your army will only replenish in friendly territory, and will only replenish units that can be recruited in the province your army is in. Even when this condition is met, normal replenishment is very low, but it increases when your army is garrisoned in a city. It further increases when your army is mustering. Your navies will follow the same principle, but will only replenish when docked in a port, and never when at sea.

In practice, these changes mean you will almost all of the time end up with mostly understrength units in your armies just like it was in history. By how much depends on how well you do in your battles, but if you fight battles far away from your military recruitment centers, your armies will eventually erode unless you hire mercenaries to compensate.


Edit: Woops, forgot this one:

- Armies in raiding stance will disrupt replenishment of armies in the same province. Enemy armies in muster-stance will still replenish, but at roughly 50% efficiency. This simulates enemy reinforcements getting intercepted by raiding parties from- and the vanguard of the invading army.

Link to 1.2 is now up in the OP.

[Black9]

Patchnotes 1.2:

Battle changes:
(melee)
- Reduced the effectiveness of Hoplites. In general, Hoplites now do a fair bit more damage, but are far less survivable.
- The Hoplite Phalanx has been changed considerably. It now only provides a slight bonus to frontal shield defense & shield armor, at the cost of a some offensive power (they gain more defense than they loose in attack however). The formation also provides a bonus to missile deflection from the front. However, the Hoplite Phalanx slightly tires the unit while it is active.
- All other defensive formations similar to the Hoplite Phalanx (i.e. shield wall, spear wall, testudo, fulcum etc.. ) also slightly to moderately tire the units when active.
- Phalangite (pikemen) overhaul. Their formation is now slightly more compact, they are better able to prevent other melee units from penetrating their pikes, and they do more damage. My goal has been that normal pike units are able to beat Hastati frontally, and can hold their own against heavier units. Elite pike units are pretty much unbeatable from the front. All pike units now destroy equivalently tiered Hoplite units.
- The Pike Phalanx formation has a 15% chance to deflect incoming missiles from the front, but fatigue regeneration has been reduced to 40% of what is was. The bracing value has been reduced to reduce cavalry units 'bouncing off' when charging in the rear.
- The fatigue regeneration of cycled line has been reduced to roughly 30% of what it was.
- Unit bracing decreases the more a unit tires. This makes cavalry charges more effective the more tired their target is.
- Infantry movement has been decreased across the board.

- All barbarian unit stats have been tweaked. Significant charge boost, and high attack value, but not so much staying power. Their looser formations and less armor allow for higher running and especially charge speed than the infantry units of 'civilized' nations. As a result, armies loosing vs barbarians are also more easily chased down, resulting in higher average casualties.
- Barbarian formations are now much less orderly. They still fight in formations as they did historically, but within the formations there is less regularity.

(ranged)
- Slingers and Archers have received a slight damage boost to compensate for the Phalanx changes.
- Poisoned arrows are now much more effective, but less units have them. Look for them on 1 nomadic unit, 1 african unit, and 1 gallic unit.

Campaign changes:
- Overhaul of army/navy replenishment: Your army will only replenish in friendly territory, and will only replenish units that can be recruited in the province your army is in. Even when this condition is met, normal replenishment is very low, but it increases when your army is garrisoned in a city. It further increases when your army is mustering. Your navies will follow the same principle, but will only replenish when docked in a port, and never when at sea.

In practice, these changes mean you will almost all of the time end up with mostly understrength units in your armies just like it was in history. By how much depends on how well you do in your battles, but if you fight battles far away from your military recruitment centers, your armies will eventually erode unless you hire mercenaries to compensate.

Really enjoying this submod. Thanks Aeimnestus.

[Aeimnestus]

Version 1.2b:
- Various minor bugfixes.

Really enjoying this submod. Thanks Aeimnestus.

Thanks, glad you like it!

[Cuddlefission]

Is there any chance you could get the Auto-Resolve mechanics working on the same general casualty ratios as your combat? I don't know how much of that can be modded or tweaked, but I worry that with the replenishment changes AI versus AI wars, or any battles the player just doesn't want to fight because they'll be walk-overs, are going to result in utterly shredded armies for all sides.

[Aeimnestus]

Is there any chance you could get the Auto-Resolve mechanics working on the same general casualty ratios as your combat? I don't know how much of that can be modded or tweaked, but I worry that with the replenishment changes AI versus AI wars, or any battles the player just doesn't want to fight because they'll be walk-overs, are going to result in utterly shredded armies for all sides.

Indeed! I have just finished testing my overhaul of the auto-resolve functionality after hours of fiddling with the numbers. But I am now quite pleased with the results! (Thankfully, I don't think I could spend another minute looking at those data tables). Auto-resolve results are still somewhat unpredictable and I haven't touched the balance of units in the auto-resolve so your army of elite Romans will still get its butt kicked by a bunch of unwashed Gauls, but on average casualties are pretty much in line with what I like to see. The looser usually survives with roughly 40-70% of his army, and the victorious army suffers between 5-20% casualties.

Look for it in the upcoming 1.3 release.

Preliminary 1.3 patchnotes:

Campaign:
- Overhaul of the auto-resolve function, to give casualty numbers more in line with field battles actually fought by the player.
- Renamed most of the Italian cities to more important cities in roughly the same physical location:
1. Ariminum wasn't founded yet and has been renamed to Ancona.
2. Velathri has been renamed to Arretium, an Etruscan city that grew to be the third largest Roman city in Italy.
3. Neapolis has been renamed to Capua, the second city in Italy that has no reason not to be represented.
4. Cosentia has been renamed to Croton, a far larger and more important city.
5. Brundisium has been renamed to Tarentum. While Brundisium was a large city as well, especially in the first 150 years of the game it doesn't hold the same importance as Tarentum.

Battle:
- Bow and slinger units (but not javelins/pilums etc.) have been overhauled. Their ranged weapons are now slightly less damaging, but provide a barrage debuff to any unit under fire. When a unit is under fire (doesn't need to suffer casualties, just arrows/stones hitting their shields/armour is enough) the following effects happen that last for 30 seconds:
1. The men in the unit under fire take cover behind their shields/eachother, reducing their movement by 30%.
2. They suffer a penalty to their charge bonus as their momentum is disrupted by the urge to defend themselves from the threat of projectiles.
3. They have reduced weapon initiative (initiative decides who strikes first in melee) for the same above reason.
4. When equipped with shields, they gain a blocking bonus versus future incoming projectiles.

- Capturing a gate now takes longer (up from 20 seconds to 2 minutes).

[Purplzhazy]

Hello, I tested your mod but in battles ( normal difficulty ), my rorariis don't take any casualties versus general cavalry. I really don't understand why are they some kind of gods.

[Aeimnestus]

Hello, I tested your mod but in battles ( normal difficulty ), my rorariis don't take any casualties versus general cavalry. I really don't understand why are they some kind of gods.

Cavalry isn't supposed to go head to head with close ranked spear infantry. In the classical era, cavalry wasn't yet developed in a way that you can compare with say the medieval knights that could flatten undisciplined infantry formations with frightening ease.
I tested your situation: a head on cavalry charge on a bracing unit of Rorarii causes several casualties in my tests. If I kept the cavalry in the melee, they would then be decimated without causing any more casualties to the rorarii. If I pulled the cavalry out of the fight and charged again however, and then repeated that procedure, I was able to inflict severe casualties on the rorarii, though the cavalry unit took significant casualties as well.

That said, I wasn't 100% pleased with the way cavalry gets quickly decimated by any spear units, and how cavalry charges on more elite units like triarii or units in certain formations (for example repel cavalry) failed to inflict any casualties. So I have made the following changes:

- The offensive spear bonus vs cavalry has been halved.
- Shock cavalry has gained a moderate charge and slight melee bonus, and a moderate defense penalty.
- Melee cavalry has gained a very slight charge and moderate melee bonus, and a minor defense penalty.
- Were applicable, all infantry formations have had their anti-cavalry bonuses reduced.

They need some further testing, so not sure if they will end up in 1.3

[fortis008]

great idea this sub-mod but i think in this mod they are also mobs little immortal

[Purplzhazy]

Cavalry isn't supposed to go head to head with close ranked spear infantry. In the classical era, cavalry wasn't yet developed in a way that you can compare with say the medieval knights that could flatten undisciplined infantry formations with frightening ease.
I tested your situation: a head on cavalry charge on a bracing unit of Rorarii causes several casualties in my tests. If I kept the cavalry in the melee, they would then be decimated without causing any more casualties to the rorarii. If I pulled the cavalry out of the fight and charged again however, and then repeated that procedure, I was able to inflict severe casualties on the rorarii, though the cavalry unit took significant casualties as well.

You have understand the point here : Rorariis don't die, but the general cavalry is litterraly decimated ^^
However, thanks for the mod, and I will try to tell you if I see some strange things again