LoL Goron's OP

[Kaede11]

I am really enjoying the game but it has become a pain lately and it's because Goron armies are OP. Can't do anything to beat them!

So, after trying to implement a balancing quick fix that I found here and failing to run my previous savegame, I decided to just continue with OP Goron and assume they are far better than my hylians, so I should use strategy to kill those *****.

While they were attacking my capital I attacked their cities in an attempt to capture everything I could, raze buildings and exterminate population, weakening them. I utterly failed. In kakariko things went great. There weren't a lot of enemies, so my crossbowmen did the job. I still think that gorons should fall quicker when attacked by arrows / bolts but oh well. Then I advanced to their capital. The fight was tough, but I managed to enter the city with only 22% of the army lost. At that point they had lost 58% of their army. Let's have a look at both armies at that point:

Mine:

2 Town Guards
2 Swordsmen recruits (1 half depleted)
1 Hyrulean Knights
4 Hylian Infantry (2 severely depleted)
3 Crossbowmen

Theirs:

1 Goron Guardians (Severely depleted, like 3 or 4 goron in the unit)
1 Goron Miners (also depleted)
1 Darunia (Totally OP, but forgivable because it's the king of Gorons, I guess)
1 Powder Keg Launcher (Which is OP as hell)

So all the odds were in my favor but... the powder launcher unit just destroyed me. I had no way to try. I mean, in vanilla total war flame artillery is powerful, but not precise, so it's not very useful against infantry. Powder Keg Launchers just punish your troops so severly they alone win the battle. Sometimes the barrel explodes in the air and fire falls, burning some men which is acceptable and good, but other times the barrel just arrives to the ground, explodes and simply decimates and entire unit of men, turning the tides of the battles and keeping me from enjoying the game. It had been 20 precious minutes of battle, fighting on the walls, flanking, trying to overcome the gorons and picking my fights to avoid too many loses, victory was at a grasp and then 2 or 3 barrels explode in my lines when the enemy is just beaten and all my units die and the battle is over. The only "good" thing about the battle is that when the battle was already lost I did a suicidal charge and managed to kill Darunia.

So... I don't know! Am I doing something wrong? or Gorons are just that OP and I should restart the campaign with a balance fix to have a "fair" game?

The mod is incredible and I want to enjoy it! Without powder! haha

[Emrys]

One way to deal with the Gorons is Cavalry. I haven't played the KoH in this new version yet, so I'm not sure if mounted knights are recruit able yet. Even if they aren't, recruit cav and Malon are very effective. The Gorons waste their charge trying to keep up with the horses and then you can engage in melee without much wory. Cav can also run behind the enemy line and disrupt the keg launcher's crew.

It's all about exploiting weaknesses. Gorons are less capable in a long, drawn out fight and lack a very good means of dealing with cavalry. Also try waiting sieges out and forcing them to sally out to fight you.

[Cameron Shutters]

No, the Gorons are incredibly OP. They defeated a full stack of Moblins and half a stack of Hylians with 6 units in one of my games. Another they killed a 1/3 stack of Moblins with just a Powder Keg Launcher. In the Freeform Campaign the KOH, the Zora, and Tarm are destroyed by the Gorons without player intervention. They are incredibly OP and no amount of tactics will change that.

Here's what I use to remedy my balance problems. With this I've found the Gorons are still quite strong but they're definitely defeatable. In the Freeform Campaign they and the Zora tend to go to war and neither side can get the in better of each other when using this fix. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...iginal-feel%29

I'd say continue your current campaign first if you're enjoying it, but if you're not just scrap it and grab a fix.

Also shouldn't you be killing people or something instead of sitting inside player computer games?

[Kaede11]

Haha, in fact, the balance fix I downloaded was this one, but I didn't use it because it's not savegame compatible. Anyway, I might restart because after 2 battles versus Gorons I just feel overwhelmed by their power. They betrayed our alliance when I started war with Gerudo, attacked Kakariko with 2 full stacks and my rear attack just failed when it was a clear win, so I'm just a little disappointed. Also, Zora, my allies, refuse to attack Goron and in the west Gohma are attacking my cities with full stacks. And what about snow? In Goron description says they are bad fighters in snow and they do pretty well, I think.

Also, in the preview is written that Wizzrobes appear when Vigjaro happiness goes low... which in fact is the same as saying "available from the beggining" because Vigjaro starts with a red face in my game. Well, all my cities started with a red face until turn 2.

Also shouldn't you be killing people or something instead of sitting inside player computer games?

LoL, tbh I had to google "Kaede kills people" to know what you were talking about and I guess it was a reference to Elfen Lied? haha, I haven't seen the anime, my nick comes from Kaede Rukawa, from Slam dunk!

[Cameron Shutters]

The Wizzrobes don't work correctly yet and I think the Gorons not dying in cold weather is a bug, so I can't really help you there until Neph fixes them. Just ignore the Wizzrobes for now; they don't really affect anything so it's not a big deal. I think Neph's plan is to improve the Wizzrobes, River Zora, Stalfos, and other niche factions all at the same time and make the AI use them correctly since right now they just kind of stand around.

As the Kaede thing, yes it was an Elfen Lied reference. On one of the HTW videos on Youtube someone had an account called "Kaede Diclonius" and a picture of the character from Elfen Lied asking some questions so after I got done answering his/her questions I asked why they were playing games instead of killing people so long story short I thought you were the same person.

[Hummingbird]

That's pretty much been my experience too. Anyone the Gorons warred with was either annihilated or subjugated within 10-15 turns of the war commencing. Turn 65 for me and virtually the entire northern half of the map is red. They steamroll over settlement after settlement one after the other without even pausing for breath,

I suspect something's skewing the system's auto-calc severely in their favour and, yeah, my money would be on those Keg Launchers too as their on-paper stats are through the roof compared to.... well just about everything.

[Emrys]

I have beaten the Gorons as the Zora in two games now... My strategy was bigocto riders and sapphire wardens with a few infantry thron in for good measure. Those and the mage cannons. They are just as good if not better than the Keg launchers... I used them to snipe the keg launcher crews before they could get into range...

[Encablossa]

I'm actually alright with how op them and their stats are. The only thing I would change is turns to recruit units and amount of men in each unit. After all I don't think rock people would breed very often.

[Cameron Shutters]

I dunno man, if I was always rock hard I'd breed a lot more.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

The Gorons are not easy to beat, but they are quite beatable (apologies if that is misspelled or not even a word). In past campaigns, I have defeated them as Lanayru, Zora Dominion, Kokiri, Kingdom of Hyrule, Sheikah, and Wizzrobes. They actually start off as fairly weak and can be rush killed quite easily should you make them your first target. Let them have time and they will give you hell.

Your best bet is to use cavalry or fast moving units (guys like Kokiri Detachments, Zora Infiltrators, Keaton Highwaymen, and Fokka Knights) to keep the Powder Kegs tied up so they cannot fire. Optimally, these units will kill the launcher crew entirely. In a defensive siege battle, hug structures as tightly as you can until the bombardment stops. In offensive siege battles... hope you brought artillery of your own.

[Kaede11]

The Wizzrobes don't work correctly yet and I think the Gorons not dying in cold weather is a bug, so I can't really help you there until Neph fixes them. Just ignore the Wizzrobes for now; they don't really affect anything so it's not a big deal. I think Neph's plan is to improve the Wizzrobes, River Zora, Stalfos, and other niche factions all at the same time and make the AI use them correctly since right now they just kind of stand around.

I have looked at the "export_descr_unit.txt" and the problem with snow is that they don't have a huge penalization as the description states. They have only -1 penalization when in snow (and they have a bonus in the deserts of +1). In the goron description it is understood that Gorons just hate cold and really struggle when fighting in snow, so I think they should be Hugely handicapped when in snow; maybe -3 and I would go as far as -5, since it only reduces their defense, not their attack. That would make (maybe?) Gorons less of a threat since they would depend heavily on terrain.

That's pretty much been my experience too. Anyone the Gorons warred with was either annihilated or subjugated within 10-15 turns of the war commencing. Turn 65 for me and virtually the entire northern half of the map is red. They steamroll over settlement after settlement one after the other without even pausing for breath,

I suspect something's skewing the system's auto-calc severely in their favour and, yeah, my money would be on those Keg Launchers too as their on-paper stats are through the roof compared to.... well just about everything.

Yup, Keg Launchers are just OP, but... all their units are, so they need to be nerfed, just like Cameron did in his fix, which I have not tried, but I surely will.

I dunno man, if I was always rock hard I'd breed a lot more.

LoL

The Gorons are not easy to beat, but they are quite beatable (apologies if that is misspelled or not even a word). In past campaigns, I have defeated them as Lanayru, Zora Dominion, Kokiri, Kingdom of Hyrule, Sheikah, and Wizzrobes. They actually start off as fairly weak and can be rush killed quite easily should you make them your first target. Let them have time and they will give you hell.

Your best bet is to use cavalry or fast moving units (guys like Kokiri Detachments, Zora Infiltrators, Keaton Highwaymen, and Fokka Knights) to keep the Powder Kegs tied up so they cannot fire. Optimally, these units will kill the launcher crew entirely. In a defensive siege battle, hug structures as tightly as you can until the bombardment stops. In offensive siege battles... hope you brought artillery of your own.

Yeah, but this just confirms they are OP. I like playing and enjoying the game and I hate situations like "I have to kill these guys at the start because if they live too long they'll eat the world alive" and start every campaign destroying the gorons. They can be beaten, I am sure of it, but if you need to rush them to avoid them being invincible, then they are totally OP. In my case, it was my first time playing the campaign and I went for Hyrule hoping to get the "jack of all trades master of none" faction. I forged an alliance with Zoras and Goron. When they saw the opportunity, they just attacked me with two stacks at kakariko and we had, more or less, the same amount of troops. I inevitably lost. I had higher ground and it did not matter at all. I was crushed. All my troops dead, only 50% of the goron army killed.

Maybe Goron Guards should not have a lethality of 1.3? Or maybe Goron troops should not send yours flying when they Charge? I don't know, but they need an adjustment.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Yeah, but this just confirms they are OP. I like playing and enjoying the game and I hate situations like "I have to kill these guys at the start because if they live too long they'll eat the world alive" and start every campaign destroying the gorons. They can be beaten, I am sure of it, but if you need to rush them to avoid them being invincible, then they are totally OP. In my case, it was my first time playing the campaign and I went for Hyrule hoping to get the "jack of all trades master of none" faction. I forged an alliance with Zoras and Goron. When they saw the opportunity, they just attacked me with two stacks at kakariko and we had, more or less, the same amount of troops. I inevitably lost. I had higher ground and it did not matter at all. I was crushed. All my troops dead, only 50% of the goron army killed.

Maybe Goron Guards should not have a lethality of 1.3? Or maybe Goron troops should not send yours flying when they Charge? I don't know, but they need an adjustment.

Did I claim that they would become invincible? No. I said they were weak in the early game and hard in the late game. You can still beat them after letting them build up, it's just more time-consuming. I had one of those times when I was fighting the Goron army (late game) at the same time I was fighting the Zora and the Gohma. I was the Kokiri. Granted, the Kokiri are quite powerful in and of themselves, but I was still able to beat the Gorons at their height, despite fighting a 3 front war.

If you think that the Gorons are OP now, you should've seen them back in the days before the freeform campaign. They underwent significant nerfs before the campaign was even released, due to how ridiculously hard they were to kill. Ruby Guards used to be only vulnerable when attacked from the flank. You could not physically kill them if you did not charge at them from behind, break off, and repeat. Back in those days they were legitimately OP.

Concerning the Gorons now, I don't really have a problem with their roster. While what they have is powerful, there are decent counters to them. If anything were to be done right now to rebalance them, I would actually go with what Apani said. Longer recruitment times should preserve their feeling of "toughness" while making them less aggressive. This would be more lore-friendly as well.

[Emrys]

I dunno... I kind of enjoy the whole OP thing that they have going on... I just started a Labrynna campaign and I think having some end game boss faction would be fun. Plus, having something to counter the amazing power of the mechs would be nice...

[Apani]

Well, Majora or the Oocca are the ones supposed to fill that role. Anyways, terrain impacts Attack, not Defense. That said, I in the future Gorons recruitment system should be changed, to reflect the fact that they are a peaceful people defending with guerrilla in time of need, rather than an imperialistic empire.

[Kaede11]

Well, Majora or the Oocca are the ones supposed to fill that role. Anyways, terrain impacts Attack, not Defense. That said, I in the future Gorons recruitment system should be changed, to reflect the fact that they are a peaceful people defending with guerrilla in time of need, rather than an imperialistic empire.

I read that terrain affects defense here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ts-and-results
But then I also read that it does impact attack, so I'm not sure about it.

[Apani]

Well, my knowledge mostly comes from theory, so I can't say.

[Cameron Shutters]

Gorons are OP and trying to debate that they're not because of the usage of a tactic that only exists within certain factions is just silly. It's pretty obvious when the entire game becomes trying to beat the Gorons before the Gorons beat everyone else that they need to be nerfed.

[Emrys]

But there are counters....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ordona as a faction beats pretty much anything that the Gorons can use. Lightning mobility, speed, and crushing charges allow their horses to bypass the kegs and flank the tough infantry.

Ghoma have Armaghoma...

Moblins have Miniblins. (You should have seen them back in the day....)

Zora have Mages and Cannons

Ikana has chariots and Garo

Labrynna has gunners and cannons

Kokiri have Emerald archers, the other OP of Hyrule Total War

The entire Gerudo Roster

Fairies and their laser beams of death...

The factions that lack a good counter would be the Lizalfos, the Deku Tribes, Hyrule, and Lanayru.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Moblins have Miniblins. (You should have seen them back in the day....)

The morale-locked Miniblins... the accident that occurred because the Miniblins came directly before the Stalfos on Neph's unit list. A full stack of Miniblins was UNSTOPPABLE.

[Cameron Shutters]

But there are counters....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ordona as a faction beats pretty much anything that the Gorons can use. Lightning mobility, speed, and crushing charges allow their horses to bypass the kegs and flank the tough infantry.

Ghoma have Armaghoma...

Moblins have Miniblins. (You should have seen them back in the day....)

Zora have Mages and Cannons

Ikana has chariots and Garo

Labrynna has gunners and cannons

Kokiri have Emerald archers, the other OP of Hyrule Total War

The entire Gerudo Roster

Fairies and their laser beams of death...

The factions that lack a good counter would be the Lizalfos, the Deku Tribes, Hyrule, and Lanayru.

Let's look at your list piece by piece and tear it to shreds.

Ordona as a faction beats pretty much anything that the Gorons can use.

That's because Ordona itself is severely overpowered. It's cavalry kill literally every soldier in a unit with just the charge alone, regardless of whether these are spearmen, elite units, or numerous units. Furthermore Ordona has get over to the Gorons and beat them early in game like you said while fighting the Lizalfos, Moblins, and possibly Gerudo and go through Hyrule Kingdom which requires some diplomacy or fighting Hyrule Kingdom in the early game before the Gorons steamroll everyone else and become unstoppable. The fact that that's difficult to pull off even with their severely OP cavalry shows how broken this suggestion is and it means every Ordona game has to play the same by fighting the Gorons right away which kills replay value.

Ghoma have Armaghoma...

Haha no. Even an entire stack of Armogohma couldn't beat a Goron army. Their slow speed and terrible melee skills means that the Gorons close the distance and kill them while the Armogohma only get two shots off. Oh and let's not forget that Armogohma are expensive and slow to build and the Gohma have to go through either Hyrule Kingdom or Lanayru to get to the Gorons to kill them early game (and it's likely to be both since KoH and Lanaryu often ally).

Moblins have Miniblins. (You should have seen them back in the day....)]

Again, no. Back in the day is irrelevant; this is today and Miniblins, while good, get raped by Gorons. Remember my post when I said I lost 1/3 stack to a Powder Keg unit alone? That was almost entirely Miniblins. Miniblins are just slightly better Bokoblins. Oh and the Moblins have to go through either Ordona or Hyrule Kingdom to get to the Gorons and it's likely to be both.

Zora have Mages and Cannons

No they don't. Both get destroyed by Goron Guardians in seconds and it takes almost no time to close the gap between them because of the rolling speed.

Ikana has chariots and Garo

After going through Ordona and the Kingdom of Hyrule they use mediocre cavalry? Not bloody likely.

Labrynna has gunners and cannons

Gunners are currently one of the worst ranged units in game when you consider their price and time to build. They take forever to appear too; it's likely the Gorons have already won by the time you get them. And cannons? What? They're one of the most inaccurate and slowest firing siege weapons in game and they're expensive and slow to build. Now Gunner Posts may work against Goron Infantry, but they can't move so Powder Kegs destroy them in seconds. Also you have to go through a bunch of people.

Kokiri have Emerald archers, the other OP of Hyrule Total War

Which also need to be nerfed but if I remember right it's not even possible to build them at the moment. Even then Goron Guardians eat them alive due to rolling speed. And again, going through the KoH or the Zora.

The entire Gerudo Roster

I assume that was a joke so I'll just ignore it.

Fairies and their laser beams of death...

The fairies are incredibly slow so if the Powder Kegs don't destroy them than the Goron Infantry will once they close the distance with their rolling speed.

What this ultimately leads to is that every game becomes "KILL THE GORONS BEFORE THEY KILL EVERYONE ELSE" which clearly shows that they are OP and kills replay value and most of all; enjoyment. Oh and let's not forget you yourself conceded that some factions simply cannot beat the Gorons without overwhelming numbers, which further proves my point. If you're seriously still trying to claim they aren't overpowered at this point than you're being very silly.

The Gorons aren't meant to be any stronger at any point than the other factions; not early game, not late game, never. That's how this game works. All factions are equally strong but with different strengths and weaknesses. The Gorons are obviously not equal and trying to claim they are is silly. Trying to claim the Gorons don't have to be equal is even more silly. If you want an end game boss than that's what Majora and the Oocca are for; not the Gorons.

The way to nerf them is quite simple. Cut their defense skill by 2 for most infantry (which makes Goron Guardians for example about equal to Hylian Infantry but they also have they're ridiculous rolling speed and charge bonus so they're actually superior), and cut the Powder Keg crew numbers down a bit (so faster infiltration units can kill them instead of just harassing them). Then they're still quite strong and terrifying if you don't have the right counters but it keeps every game from becoming "STOP THE GORONS BEFORE THEY KILL EVERYONE." It means the Gorons and Zora are about equal in strength so two usually end up engaged in a war that could swing either way depending on who their allies are and the player's actions.