spartans were all homosexuals

[andrew881thebest]

till the age of 30 they could not have a woman but were encouraged to have sex with their mates. When they got a woman, in first period she cut her hair as a man and put a beard to make the man feel confortable, since he was used to have sex with men with beards. Kids at the age of 12, when they began the harshest part of training (agoghè), were used to make -not necessarly consensual- sex with the oldest guys of their squad (who was called wolf leader or something similar). Nowadays it would be called paedophilia. This just for all spartan fan boy, maybe you had to know this, cause in the movie 300 there is no mention about it.
This is what happened in spartans barracks: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Er...vre_G13_n4.jpg

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Art_gr%C3%A8cia.jpg
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ki...ouvre_G278.jpg
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/lovers.jpg
http://www.livius.org/a/1/greece/lovers3.jpg

[Hoplite of Ilis]

I guess it's every homosexual's excuse nowadays.

[Hoplite of Ilis]

Until the age of 30 they could not get married. That didn't stop them from having bastards. I've never heard or read about the beard thing you mention. I don't suppose you know Greek, so I'll translate it for you.

"Ξενοφώντος Λακεδαιμονίων, Πολιτεία II, 13

Ο Λυκούργος, όμως, αντιθέτως προς όλα ταύτα πιστεύων, επεδοκίμαζε μόνον εάν σημαίνων άνθρωπος, θαυμάσας την ψυχικήν αρετήν του παιδιού, προσεπάθει να κάμη αυτόν φίλον με δεσμούς αναμεταξύ των αμέμπτους και να τον συναναστρέφεται, διότι τούτο ενόμιζε μέσον καλλίστης ανατροφής. Εάν, όμως, επαρουσιάζετο κανείς επιθυμών το παιδικόν σώμα, επειδή ο Λυκούργος θεωρούσε τούτο πολύ αναίσχυντον, νομοθέτησε εις την Σπάρτην να απέχουν οι ερασταί από τα αγαπώμενα παιδιά, όπως αποφεύγουν εις αφροδισίους (ερωτικές) σχέσεις οι γονείς από τα τέκνα των και οι αδελφοί από τους αδελφούς των."

Xenophon, City of Lacedaimon

Lycurgos, contrary to what others believe, praised the man who admires the soul virtue of a boy and tries to befriend it with flawless bonds between them, for that he (Lycurgos) thought of the outmost (noble) upbringing. But, if one would show craving a boy's body, and because Lycurgos regarded that as most shameful, he made law in Sparta for the teachers to keep their distance from their students (Eros+Eromenos=Teacher+Student, NOT Lover+Loved - as is today), the same way parents and offspring, brothers and sisters should avoid sexual affair.

[andrew881thebest]

Until the age of 30 they could not get married. That didn't stop them from having bastards. I've never heard or read about the beard thing you mention. I don't suppose you know Greek, so I'll translate it for you.

"Ξενοφώντος Λακεδαιμονίων, Πολιτεία II, 13

Ο Λυκούργος, όμως, αντιθέτως προς όλα ταύτα πιστεύων, επεδοκίμαζε μόνον εάν σημαίνων άνθρωπος, θαυμάσας την ψυχικήν αρετήν του παιδιού, προσεπάθει να κάμη αυτόν φίλον με δεσμούς αναμεταξύ των αμέμπτους και να τον συναναστρέφεται, διότι τούτο ενόμιζε μέσον καλλίστης ανατροφής. Εάν, όμως, επαρουσιάζετο κανείς επιθυμών το παιδικόν σώμα, επειδή ο Λυκούργος θεωρούσε τούτο πολύ αναίσχυντον, νομοθέτησε εις την Σπάρτην να απέχουν οι ερασταί από τα αγαπώμενα παιδιά, όπως αποφεύγουν εις αφροδισίους (ερωτικές) σχέσεις οι γονείς από τα τέκνα των και οι αδελφοί από τους αδελφούς των."

Xenophon, City of Lacedaimon

Lycurgos, contrary to what others believe, praised the man who admires the soul virtue of a boy and tries to befriend it with flawless bonds between them, for that he (Lycurgos) thought of the outmost (noble) upbringing. But, if one would show craving a boy's body, and because Lycurgos regarded that as most shameful, he made law in Sparta for the teachers to keep their distance from their students (Eros+Eromenos=Teacher+Student, NOT Lover+Loved - as is today), the same way parents and offspring, brothers and sisters should avoid sexual affair.

maybe what you say refers to anal sex which was seen as a bad thing. IN fact teachers and students, in Greek in general, practised some forms of alternative sex, like oral sex, or sex "intercrurale", which means between thighs.
Sparta[modifica | modifica sorgente]

Sparta, polis dorica, è stata la prima città a praticare la nudità atletica (gimnopedie) ed una delle prime a formalizzare rigorosamente la pederastia^[4].
Questo tipo di rapporto era previsto e regolato dalle leggi (codice di Licurgo). L'uomo doveva preliminarmente guadagnarsi l'affezione del ragazzo, a differenza che a Creta o ad Atene, dove questo consenso, sebbene considerato preferibile, non era tuttavia richiesto. Era considerato in generale normale per un uomo essere attratto da un ragazzo, il quale doveva tuttavia possedere la kalokagathia, cioè le due caratteristiche della bellezza e del valore (essere καλός kalos, ossia "bello" e ἀγαθός agathos, "buono", "coraggioso", "onesto").
Eliano racconta che a Sparta per un uomo il non avere un giovane come amante era considerato un deficit di carattere, e si poteva anche esser puniti per questo^[5].

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederastia_greca

translating in few words, it says that according to Licurgus' law, differently than otherwhere, in sparta the "teacher" had to gain the child's affection. It was normal to lvoe a young boy, who had to be handsome and have virtue/bravery. Not having had a boy was a bad thing, a deficit in personality.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agogh%C3%A9

here says that adult warriors had natural relationships with youngest males but youngest should ask it or agree. It was not only a relationhip of sexual nature but it was based on trust and teaching. Even spartan grils were used to have a homosexual relationship with adult spartan women.

Age to have those relationship was 12.

[andrew881thebest]

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eromenos

Notice how Plato talks about Eromenos (young males, younger than 16): "they love MEN and have fun with them living with them and -having HUGS??-by men". This seems about clarifying about sexual nature of paederastia in greek. It was not necessary but acceptable. Same for spartans, who adopted this typical greek life style.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostit..._Grecia_antica

notice that paederastia was accepted exactely as it was male prostitution, which is, just in the case the beloved "had no hair", no beard and no hair in legs. Only after the male had "hairs" sexual relationship was seen as a bad thing, while until the male was in puberty, which is since 12 to 16-17 years old, it was considered a good and healthy thing. If relationship endured after, it was despised. Then, there was in Athen a place near Pireo where children-slaves were doomed to prostitution withouth any problem.

Strangely, oral sex was seen as degrading, so that it was despised (unless if you did it with a slave), while other type of sex (i e sodomy) was acceptable even with citizens.

[JaM]

Plus, it was Theban Sacred Band which was well known for homosexual bonds between soldiers than Spartans..

[andrew881thebest]

Plus, it was Theban Sacred Band which was well known for homosexual bonds between soldiers than Spartans..

yes but spartans practised it for same purpose and it is well known, maybe a bit less. Licurgus' law talks expressely about rules of homosexuality and paedophilia. In reality Licurgus law was the first written law about this.

[RGA]

The practice of homosexuality was pretty common in Ancient Greek, not just in Sparta. It had nothing to do but the instinct urge of sexual desire but was seen as a mean to connect men and even improve their manliness. Like in Iliad, the Holy Bible of Ancient Greek, Achilles and Patroclus were pretty much lovers, but Achilles was definitely not gay, since he had wife, seized girls for himself and fought when his spoil of war was taken away.

I'm sure an Ancient Greek man would find himself dismayed by many of our normal practices, like women being equal to men, or silver- and bronze medal winners are praised in Olympic games. It's all the matter of cultural perspective.

[andrew881thebest]

Greeks were gay that s all folks. they sticked their manliness inside other men.

[SD_Man]

Greeks were gay that s all folks. they sticked their manliness inside other men.

Can't believe no one mentioned the celts ..., spartans are nothing compared to them.

[Earl Dibbles Jr]

Can't believe no one mentioned the celts ..., spartans are nothing compared to them.

What? They were extremely against homosexuality. They did love nature, similar to elves from lord of the rings haha. I guess liking nature and having long hair is gay to you.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

This is Xerxes propaganda from Iran itself.:sparta:

[lawandorder82]

Sorry this topic about spartans being that you must be talking about Athens were the ones that did those thing perfect example is the Olympic games here is more to prove it was athens

I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy’s soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy’s outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

In Xenophon’s Symposium, Socrates (who was attracted to young boys though not a Spartan) is recorded by Xenophon as saying:

In contrast to this, the Lacedaemonians, who hold that if a person so much as feels a carnal concupiscence he will never come to any good end, cause the objects of their love to be so consummately brave that even when arrayed with foreigners and even when not stationed in the same line with their lovers they just as surely feel ashamed to desert their comrades.

This sounds like strong, nonsexual friendship.
-
Aristotle writes in Book 2 of Politics:

So that the inevitable result is that in a state thus constituted wealth is held in honor, especially if it is the case that the people are under the sway of their women, as most of the military and warlike races are,

…

For it appears that the original teller of the legend had good reason for uniting Ares with Aphrodite, for all men of martial spirit appear to be attracted to the companionship either of male associates or of women. Hence this characteristic existed among the Spartans, and in the time of their empire many things were controlled by the women;

[andrew881thebest]

Sorry this topic about spartans being that you must be talking about Athens were the ones that did those thing perfect example is the Olympic games here is more to prove it was athens

I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy’s soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy’s outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

In Xenophon’s Symposium, Socrates (who was attracted to young boys though not a Spartan) is recorded by Xenophon as saying:

In contrast to this, the Lacedaemonians, who hold that if a person so much as feels a carnal concupiscence he will never come to any good end, cause the objects of their love to be so consummately brave that even when arrayed with foreigners and even when not stationed in the same line with their lovers they just as surely feel ashamed to desert their comrades.

This sounds like strong, nonsexual friendship.
-
Aristotle writes in Book 2 of Politics:

So that the inevitable result is that in a state thus constituted wealth is held in honor, especially if it is the case that the people are under the sway of their women, as most of the military and warlike races are,

…

For it appears that the original teller of the legend had good reason for uniting Ares with Aphrodite, for all men of martial spirit appear to be attracted to the companionship either of male associates or of women. Hence this characteristic existed among the Spartans, and in the time of their empire many things were controlled by the women;

yes whatever... have you seen the paintings in first post? they seem to be quite exhaustive. why cannot you accept that Spartans exactly as other Greeks practised paederastia which Could imply sex between a grown man and a young boy? Licurgus talks about the fact that boy should accept it, so accept what, friendship? You must take into account that Sparita s lived most of their time far from home in barracks with their mates. If they went back to their houses to have sex they were punished. This was a way to bring them to have sex with other guys in the barracks. there was the idea that this would bring cohesion in battle. Then women were seen as inferior to men, so a relationship between men was seen as better. Spartan women were allowed more things ten in other free towns but they were always treated as inferior. their role was to generate Spartan men and they did physical activity for that reason, cause it was believed that a healthy woman would generate a healthy son. Then children were bred and trained with brutality and should obey their team mates orders so it would not have been strange if this implied even some forced sexual intercourse.

[andrew881thebest]

Sorry this topic about spartans being that you must be talking about Athens were the ones that did those thing perfect example is the Olympic games here is more to prove it was athens

I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy’s soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy’s outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

In Xenophon’s Symposium, Socrates (who was attracted to young boys though not a Spartan) is recorded by Xenophon as saying:

In contrast to this, the Lacedaemonians, who hold that if a person so much as feels a carnal concupiscence he will never come to any good end, cause the objects of their love to be so consummately brave that even when arrayed with foreigners and even when not stationed in the same line with their lovers they just as surely feel ashamed to desert their comrades.

This sounds like strong, nonsexual friendship.
-
Aristotle writes in Book 2 of Politics:

So that the inevitable result is that in a state thus constituted wealth is held in honor, especially if it is the case that the people are under the sway of their women, as most of the military and warlike races are,

…

For it appears that the original teller of the legend had good reason for uniting Ares with Aphrodite, for all men of martial spirit appear to be attracted to the companionship either of male associates or of women. Hence this characteristic existed among the Spartans, and in the time of their empire many things were controlled by the women;

ok, where does it say that spartans did not have homosexuals relationships? then please use plain english because it is not my first language and i do not know all words. Thx

[andrew881thebest]

Sorry this topic about spartans being that you must be talking about Athens were the ones that did those thing perfect example is the Olympic games here is more to prove it was athens

I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.
The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy’s soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that if the attraction lay in the boy’s outward beauty (only, and not even on the boy's internal beauty, the virtue i talked before), he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.

In Xenophon’s Symposium, Socrates (who was attracted to young boys though not a Spartan) is recorded by Xenophon as saying:

In contrast to this, the Lacedaemonians, who hold that if a person so much as feels a carnal concupiscence he will never come to any good end (personal opinion: that does not mean he will not be allowed to practise it), cause the objects of their love to be so consummately brave that even when arrayed with foreigners and even when not stationed in the same line with their lovers they just as surely feel ashamed to desert their comrades.

This sounds like strong, nonsexual friendship.
-
Aristotle writes in Book 2 of Politics:

So that the inevitable result is that in a state thus constituted wealth is held in honor, especially if it is the case that the people are under the sway of their women, as most of the military and warlike races are,

…

For it appears that the original teller of the legend had good reason for uniting Ares with Aphrodite, for all men of martial spirit appear to be attracted to the companionship either of male associates or of women. Hence this characteristic existed among the Spartans, and in the time of their empire many things were controlled by the women;

ok, where does it say that spartans did not have homosexuals relationships? then please use plain english because it is not my first language and i do not know all words. Thx

[Octavius Vatco]

Great.. another bullcrap topic...

[lawandorder82]

Paintings dont do anything for me I look to history. The Spartans would not tolerate that behavior it is my post. That is your oppion but I look to history.

[andrew881thebest]

Paintings dont do anything for me I look to history. The Spartans would not tolerate that behavior it is my post.

paintings are one of the most important archeological sources especially for Greek history...sorry if You are a sparta fanboy

[Kissaki]

paintings are one of the most important archeological sources especially for Greek history...sorry if You are a sparta fanboy

I beg your pardon? Paintings are useful, yes, but hardly the most important archaeological sources, especially for Greek history. If you go by paintings you have hoplites riding dolphins as well - I advise a grain of salt.

As for the paintings you posted, are you sure you're not overinterpreting? What about that dog in one of the paintings, sniffing the privates of one of the guys? Where they sanctioning that as well? Also, where is the intercourse? There are greek vases depicting intercourse between men and women, but what about between men?

You mention yourself that anal sex was taboo, and that is certainly true. Not because it involved the ass, but because it involved one man penetrating another - which was illegal. The sort of pederasty you see in those paintings you posted wasn't considered sex.