Removing Westerland Sappers

[Hengest]

I propose that we remove the unit Westerland Sappers from the game.

Currently the unit is an infantry which if they make up even 5% of an army give a +2 siege bonus.

This means that in an army of 10,000 I only need two units of them to give me a sizeable reduction in the time I have to wait before I can assault a settlement.

There are two major reasons for the unit: gameplay and lore. As has been stated several times by the mods, lore is of course of interest but gameplay has to come first. Based on this, I do not think the lore that the Westerlands has a great many goldminers is good enough reason to motivate the Westerlander armies being experts in siege warfare. The lore does not refer to any Lannister gift for sieges, nevermind their miners having battlefield use. Furthermore, if this is a question of gameplay- does the faction with the richest lands, strongest levies and best defenses really need an 'edge' in assaulting and taking enemy settlements. The military engagements with the Westerlanders in this campaign have proven them to be more than capable of winning, I do not feel that the Westerlanders would suffer any losses from removing this unit and I certainly do not think they bring anything good to the game.

I am not advocating a compromise by raising the percentage requirements or dropping the overall siege bonus effect, I think the unit stands out amongst all other units in the game as unfair and unreasonable and I think they should be removed completely. If players feel for some reason that the Westerlanders still should have yet another unique unit, there is more than enough evidence for levy light cavalry and medium levy lancers in the lore and surely they would give a gameplay edge if there really is a need for the Westerlanders to be even stronger than they already are.

[Pontifex Maximus]

How do you intend to compensate the people who purchased them and have been paying upkeep for them? Personally, I think that voting to remove units from a roster in the middle of a game when people have been using them is complete . What's stopping me from opening votes to remove the North's elite heavy infantry unit?

[Poach]

Voted no as there's no replacement suggested. I'm against simply dropping the entire slot.

[Honors Bastion]

I voted no as well. We can't just simply remove them from the game without there being some kind of replacement.

[Zethira]

This may just be me, but didn't we have a whole discussion in the Mod Request thread about this unit, and generally agreed that while +2 was too much, +1 while keeping the unit was a good compromise?

[Lucius Malfoy]

This may just be me, but didn't we have a whole discussion in the Mod Request thread about this unit, and generally agreed that while +2 was too much, +1 while keeping the unit was a good compromise?

We did have a discussion, Zethira. However this poll was made by Hengest to completely remove the unit from existence with no substitute to replace it.

[Zethira]

We did have a discussion, Zethira. However this poll was made by Hengest to completely remove the unit from existence with no substitute to replace it.

Then i have no choice but to vote no as well. I'd vote in favor of bringing it down to a +1, but removing it entirely would only really be feasible if there was something else offered in return for it.

'tis only maintaining proper game balance not to replace an unfair advantage with an unfair DISadvantage.

[Poach]

Several suggestions were made, including lowering it to +1, raising the % required, or replacing the unit with something else, though no specific replacement ideas were brought forward. All this poll wants is for them to be removed entirely, though, in my opinion a renewed discussion to find some consensus before opening a poll would've been the way forward, as I recall very few supporting the complete removal without replacement at the time, and it seems looking at the numbers that sentiment remains.

[Victorius]

its true...they are "overpowered" (I am Westerlander) but i dont think its smart to remove them now. just like ponti said...some players allready bought them

[Lucius Malfoy]

its true...they are "overpowered" (I am Westerlander) but i dont think its smart to remove them now. just like ponti said...some players allready bought them

And there is no replacement for them if they are removed. Doesn't seem fair at all to anyone in the Westerlands.

[Clagius]

I voted no as well, for the reasons stated above.

[Oznerol]

Voted no aswell, they are a nice unit. And would be unfair for Westernlanders.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Changing it in any way without total consensus would be inappropriate as it is currently the middle of a game and they have been purchased.

[Jokern]

It seems that I voted too early on yes. I see the problem that they could cause because the Westerlands do have a lot nice bonuses, but their other AOR units are nothing special when you think about it, more like copy-and-paste elite cav and elite inf and elite ship than anything OP. They do get an income bonus on 10% and their regions are very prosperous, but that makes sense lorewise. I change my vote to abstain. They can be made less effective or switched for another unit that is better balanced, but not just removed.

[Hengest]

It's quite easy to replace them with another existing Westerlander unit and I did actually suggest a lore based unit to replace them. Perhaps you didn't read the post properly. Votes to remove the North's elite heavy infantry unit would be fine if you could motivate it, but they are not overpowered or unlike any other type of unit, again in the OP I raise the point that the sappers are not only overpowered but have a TYPE of bonus that is unlike any other unit.

[Clagius]

It's not fair to change it in middle of the game, since people have already bought them. Unless there will be a poll among the players who have those certain units.

[Hengest]

Come on, it's not a game-changer to remove them is it. It is a game-changer to have every Westerlander army with that edge every time they strike, when they are already very powerful. And we have changed lots of things mid-campaign before now. Anyway, the poll is pretty conclusive. I'm clearly in the wrong.

[Poach]

Your poll question is "remove westerlander sappers" and your last paragraph makes a vague reference to possible replacements. That's a far cry short of making a viable replacement suggestion.