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Thread: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

  1. #61
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    In the US many municipal and county jails already charge a daily fee for incarceration.
    It can take years to pay those fees.

    To the poster who suggested that a persons family pay those fees, I offer to you a warm and heartfelt middle finger. Please stay out of public service.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Let's make prisons a source of profit, no way that could have bad consequences.
    "People don't think the universe be like it is, but it do." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson


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  3. #63

    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    Let's make prisons a source of profit, no way that could have bad consequences.
    In some ways they already are.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%...strial_complex

    @OP
    It's a profoundly bad idea. Especially charging them for medical treatment is borderline insane. I've no issue with inmates doing some work of some sort to earn a bit of money which theyll often spend in the prison economy (both the legit and illegit sort) , but as I understand it, the system proposed will cause them to have debt when they're released. As if the attempted rehabilitation isn't hard enough.

    Under the stern but loving patronage of Nihil.

  4. #64
    Greymane's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Why? Are you a potential criminal?

    If not, is it not much better to live in a society with far less crimes because all criminals would disappear the first time they're caught, and with more tax money allocated for your health care and other useful things?
    I really, really cannot fathom your line of tought here. If you are saying that petty thieves should get the bullet, I'm done talking to you.
    I'm all for giving rapists and murderers life sentence and putting them in an uncomfortable cell, but there is a reason we don't have the death penalty in Europe.
    Something to do with compassion. Have a nice day.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Arbeit macht frei.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  6. #66
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    In the US many municipal and county jails already charge a daily fee for incarceration.
    It can take years to pay those fees.

    To the poster who suggested that a persons family pay those fees, I offer to you a warm and heartfelt middle finger. Please stay out of public service.
    You don't agree that family is partially responsible for it's members?

    social control and all that doesn't mean anything to you?

    If my daughter messes up in life, then I'm partly to blame for giving her the wrong foundations to build upon, and thus I should be held accountable partly if she where to mess up.

  7. #67
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    To the poster who suggested that a persons family pay those fees, I offer to you a warm and heartfelt middle finger. Please stay out of public service.
    Now that's a sizzling good quote; +1 rep coming right up!

    You, sir, have balls. I like balls.



    Quote Originally Posted by Greymane View Post
    Something to do with compassion. Have a nice day.
    It might also have something to do with the possible innocence of those handed a guilty verdict in court. There are plenty of cases where people are found innocent through new or reinterpreted evidence and are acquitted of the charges after they've already been sent to prison!

    Imagine being the guy who administers the death sentence by injected poison (very common these days in some States of the U.S.), only to find out that you put an innocent man to death.

    You don't agree that family is partially responsible for it's members?

    social control and all that doesn't mean anything to you?

    If my daughter messes up in life, then I'm partly to blame for giving her the wrong foundations to build upon, and thus I should be held accountable partly if she where to mess up.
    How very medieval Chinese of you.

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  8. #68

    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    You don't agree that family is partially responsible for it's members?

    social control and all that doesn't mean anything to you?

    If my daughter messes up in life, then I'm partly to blame for giving her the wrong foundations to build upon, and thus I should be held accountable partly if she where to mess up.
    .............no..........................

  9. #69

    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Why? Are you a potential criminal?

    If not, is it not much better to live in a society with far less crimes because all criminals would disappear the first time they're caught, and with more tax money allocated for your health care and other useful things?


    ...
    Err... I meant the fact that we live in democracies so your personal opinion is not law until you convince society of it?

    And you sound very naive when you think you cannot end up charged for a crime ever. I believe you will change your opinion on how the justice system should work in a bloody hurry.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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  10. #70
    Greymane's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post

    It might also have something to do with the possible innocence of those handed a guilty verdict in court. There are plenty of cases where people are found innocent through new or reinterpreted evidence and are acquitted of the charges after they've already been sent to prison!

    Imagine being the guy who administers the death sentence by injected poison (very common these days in some States of the U.S.), only to find out that you put an innocent man to death.
    Yeah, that too. Good point!
    Was a little too angry yesterday to thing that clearly.
    Have some rep.

    EDIT:
    What's more, dealing death in punishment even for heavy crimes, is bringing us on the same level as the murderers themselves.
    And if a criminal knows that for his offence he will get the death penalty, he's going to fight to the bitter end and do whatever he can to stay out of the police's hands.
    And to get back tot the Original discussion: in the States, the death penalty is not much cheaper than locking up someone for life, because of all the trials to determine the guilt of that person. If the US do away with those trials, like AqD seems to want, they really are not better than Nazi Germany, where people just 'disappeared' for various reasons.
    Last edited by Greymane; January 15, 2014 at 06:16 AM.

  11. #71
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Tiresome? Again tell me how we can rehabilitate Mexican drug cartel members who like to put people in oil drums and set them on fire. Or tell me how we are going to rehabilitate the hardcore gang leaders who are so powerful they can order murders even form inside prison. Your are so naive, its not even funny.
    What is funny is how you cherry pick one or two examples (still without proof what is to say a mexican gang member is immune to rehabilitation? And even if there are life prisoners does that make brutal prisons the only option? Ridiculous argument. How about all the ones who get released to reoffend again, argument fail.) and ignore empirical facts that rehabilitation works.

    Facts are facts and your insults betray your lack of any real arguments. It is not I who is naive. It is the person flying in the face of all statistical evidence in every country in the world. Rehabilitation reduces recidivism bar no other examples to prove differently.

    So take that naivety and smoke it. Educate yourself on the topic somewhat.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Somehow reminds me of some anecdotes from PR China, where some criminals are shot and their family is charged for the bullett.

  13. #73
    Atterdag's Avatar Tro og Håb
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    Let's make prisons a source of profit, no way that could have bad consequences.
    Indeed. Seems water-tight.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

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  14. #74
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    What is funny is how you cherry pick one or two examples (still without proof what is to say a mexican gang member is immune to rehabilitation? And even if there are life prisoners does that make brutal prisons the only option? Ridiculous argument. How about all the ones who get released to reoffend again, argument fail.) and ignore empirical facts that rehabilitation works.
    I don't need to prove anything. Your the one claiming rehabilitation will work on anyone and that no one is immune to it. The only person that has something to prove is you.

    You can't even construct a coherent argument against me without making a strawman. Rehabilitation does work, but does it work for everyone Denny? Does it work on every single person? Because i have not once claimed it doesn't work. All i have claimed is that not everyone can be rehabilitated. You keep claiming the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Facts are facts and your insults betray your lack of any real arguments. It is not I who is naive. It is the person flying in the face of all statistical evidence in every country in the world. Rehabilitation reduces recidivism bar no other examples to prove differently.
    And another starwman. Please read my posts for once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    So take that naivety and smoke it. Educate yourself on the topic somewhat.
    You haven't posted a single damn fact in here. You just keep claiming rehabilitation will work because of Norway or some . Does Norway in any way have the same criminals as the US does? No. Rehabilitation can work, but not for everyone since not every ing criminal is the same.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  15. #75
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    You don't agree that family is partially responsible for it's members?

    social control and all that doesn't mean anything to you?

    If my daughter messes up in life, then I'm partly to blame for giving her the wrong foundations to build upon, and thus I should be held accountable partly if she where to mess up.
    Its clear to me that you have no children and likely have no responsibility to anyone but yourself. We don't punish people who don't break the law. That's not now a benevolent and civilized society operates. Being a poor parent is not reason to be punished, not that you can even establish that poor parenting is a primary causal factor of incarceration in the first place.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  16. #76
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    I don't need to prove anything. Your the one claiming rehabilitation will work on anyone and that no one is immune to it. The only person that has something to prove is you.

    You can't even construct a coherent argument against me without making a strawman. Rehabilitation does work, but does it work for everyone Denny? Does it work on every single person? Because i have not once claimed it doesn't work. All i have claimed is that not everyone can be rehabilitated. You keep claiming the opposite.


    And another starwman. Please read my posts for once.


    You haven't posted a single damn fact in here. You just keep claiming rehabilitation will work because of Norway or some . Does Norway in any way have the same criminals as the US does? No. Rehabilitation can work, but not for everyone since not every ing criminal is the same.
    So you have a small percentage of life servers....hmm how does that effect the recidivism rates if they are in jail for life? It doesn't. It is these ridiculous claims that because you have some drug dealers who've killed some people that you can't have rehabilitation focused systems and somehow it wouldn't work in the USA.

    Wrong! I don't need statistics to prove that the existence of someone in jail for life...isn't going to effect recidivism. It is a little something something called logic. Maybe try a spoonful? Once you learn how to think and process thoughts in a vaguely logical and rational fashion you might be less quick to jump to insults.

    And comparing statistics which I am not rushing to do because it has been done around the forum countless times isn't just Norway, it is anywhere rehabilitation becomes the focus.

  17. #77
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    So you have a small percentage of life servers....hmm how does that effect the recidivism rates if they are in jail for life? It doesn't. It is these ridiculous claims that because you have some drug dealers who've killed some people that you can't have rehabilitation focused systems and somehow it wouldn't work in the USA.
    Small percent? 10% of American prisoners are in jail for life. You are again missing the point entirely. You think all criminals are the same and that rehabilitation will work on 100% of prisoners. The only ridiculous thing here is you thinking rehabilitation is going to work for everyone. That everyone can be rehabilitated. Nothing works 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Wrong! I don't need statistics to prove that the existence of someone in jail for life...isn't going to effect recidivism. It is a little something something called logic. Maybe try a spoonful? Once you learn how to think and process thoughts in a vaguely logical and rational fashion you might be less quick to jump to insults.
    Like i said, can't even form a coherent argument. We are not talking about recidivism rates. We are talking about whenever criminals be rehabilitated or not. You do realize many people get life but with the possibility of parole? Many they very much could go and and start committing crimes again? Thats not even the point of my argument but to show how retarded your logic is.

    It might help to actually read my posts Denny instead of continuing to argue against nothing. I have not claimed rehabilitation doesn't work. I haven't claimed it don't affect recidivism rates. Those are just strawman arguments you keep coming up with. The only thing i have claimed is that not all criminals can be rehabilitated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  18. #78
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    So you can't have a rehabilitation system because of 10% of the prison population?

    When I say rehabilitation works it means it lowers recidivism. There is absolutely no reason not to completely overhaul the entire US system just because some people won't get out of prison. That is just silly. Again little bit of logic and rationality.

  19. #79
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    OK Vanoi I can see you are having real problems with this thread so allow me to help you out, I'm going to take it really easy nice and slow and see if you can work it through step by step:

    So Himster says this:

    I think that sums up the debate.
    When the priorities of the prison system is shifted towards rehabilitation the results are better.
    He gets this:

    Nope.
    With some nonsense justifications on which are not true, as I've said making generalised statements about a sub continent with differing demographics is silly.

    Then I reply that rehabilitation works obviously in the context of the previous posts ie. In agreement with this:

    When the priorities of the prison system is shifted towards rehabilitation the results are better

    So yes in this context you rehabilitation works. The existence of so called super criminals doesn't mean that rehabilitation won't give better results.

    Or in other Brevik isn't going to destroy the Norweigan rehabilitation focus...shockingly!

  20. #80
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Should prisoners pay for their stay in prison?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    OK Vanoi I can see you are having real problems with this thread so allow me to help you out, I'm going to take it really easy nice and slow and see if you can work it through step by step:

    So Himster says this:


    He gets this:
    Cool, but that wasn't what i was responding to was it? it was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    USA doesn't have a huge level of crime, that is a myth. If you remove the four violent hot spots the USA has a lot less crime on a whole than the UK.

    What is that...statistically there is huge variation in something the size of a subcontinent.

    HOLY PINCUSHIONS BATMAN that can't be right!

    But yeah it is, the politics of fear around American super criminals not being able to be rehabilitated is getting tiresome. Rehabilitation is an empirical fact and it works no matter where it is tried. There are no supercriminals in the USA.
    Understand now what i am arguing against? You are basically claiming rehabilitation works 100% of the time so i went on to claim that no, it in fact doesn't work for some criminals as they cannot be rehabilitated. I've pointed out this claim 4 or 5 times to you, but it seems like you wish to continue to ignore my posts. I didn't claimed reconciliation doesn't work. I didn't claim because a few criminals can't be rehabilitated they we shouldn't try and do it. Understand now? Or do you want me to put it in more simpler terms for you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    So yes in this context you rehabilitation works. The existence of so called super criminals doesn't mean that rehabilitation won't give better results.

    Or in other Brevik isn't going to destroy the Norweigan rehabilitation focus...shockingly!
    Do you want me to just get all of my posts here, so you can read them? Because i don't remember saying once in any of my posts that rehabilitation fails or doesn't work because a few criminals can't be rehabilitated. I keep repeating in all of my posts what my claim is, but it seems you have a hard time reading my posts. Maybe if you actually read my post, you wouldn't continue to argue against a claim i haven't made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    So you can't have a rehabilitation system because of 10% of the prison population?

    When I say rehabilitation works it means it lowers recidivism. There is absolutely no reason not to completely overhaul the entire US system just because some people won't get out of prison. That is just silly. Again little bit of logic and rationality.
    Again another strawman. Where did i say we shouldn't reform the prison system because of this?
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

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