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Thread: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

  1. #1
    Landil's Avatar Tiro
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    Default [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre




    In the Year of Our Lord 1035 Sancho III Garcés, King of Navarre by birthright and King of León by conquest, took his last breath and plunged Christian Spain into chaos. For he had devised that his lands should be divided amongst his sons. The eldest, García, became King of Navarre, Gonzalo had the counties of Sobrarbe and Ribagorza, and Ferdinand was Count of Castile. Lastly, his eldest but illegitimate son, Ramiro, was given the county of Aragón to rule. As was the wont of sons of royal blood in that time and age, they soon raised their banners against each other in bloody conflict. It started in the decade after their father's death, when Gonzalo was assassinated and Ramiro convinced García, who was his nominal overlord, to grant him Sobrarbe and Ribagorza. Not long after, Ramiro, backed by the Muslim ruler of Zaragoza, invaded Navarre when he thought García weak. His half-brother called upon Ferdinand to support him, and Ramiro was defeated. Of the three brothers, Ferdinand was most successful, first defeating Bermudo III of Léon, who had taken back his kingdom after the death of Ferdinand's father, and then in AD 1054 his elder brother García, from whom he took back the region of Bureba. Ramiro's attempts at military expansion were less fruitful, and his desire for expansion became his end when trying to take the town of Graus in AD 1063.

    It was up to his son Sancho Ramírez to lead the fledgling kingdom of Aragón to the greatness that Ramiro had aspired to. It seemed to start well, as in the same year his father died, Pope Alexander II preached in favour of the Spanish Reconquista. From the north, the French and the Burgundians answered the call and from Italy came Norman contingents. The crusaders met in Aragonese lands and joined Sancho's forces in an assault on the city of Barbastro. Though the siege was a success, the armies were disbanded too soon and in AD 1065 the Muslims came with an army and retook the city. More misfortune became Sancho Ramírez the same year, when his two nephews, the kings of Castile and Navarre started fighting over contested lands in the Rioja region. Sancho IV Garcés of Navarre called upon Aragonese assistance, as Sancho Ramírez in his careful diplomatic play still recognised the King of Navarre as his nominal overlord. The so called 'War of the Three Sanchos' ended in defeat, Sancho II of Castile consolidating his powers further. A lull in action was ended when in AD 1076 Sancho IV Garcés became target of fratricide at the hands of his brother and sister. Alfonso VI of León and Castile, who had succeeded his brother Sancho II after the latter had been assassinated in AD 1072, was quick to claim that the Navarrese throne should be his. However, the nobles of Navarre supported Sancho Ramírez instead, mainly because the vassals of Aragón enjoyed far more autonomy than their equals in Castile did. The issue was eventually settled diplomatically, Alfonso gaining permanent control over the previously contested regions of Álava, Bureba and Rioja, and Sancho receiving the kingship of both Aragón and Navarre as recognised by Alfonso.

    This is the situation that you enter at the start of the campaign in AD 1080. In the boots of Sancho Ramírez you rule the joint kingdoms of Aragón and Navarre, comprising a relatively insignificant string of counties straddling the lower reaches of the Pyrenees. Small towns dot the valleys carved out by rivers like the Aragón, the source of the kingdom's name. Of these towns, Jaca is the capital of the original lands of Aragón, and during his reign Ramiro bestowed it its city charter and, just before his death, had it made the seat of the diocese of Aragón (or Jaca-Huesca). Pamplona, the capital of Navarre, was a greater city still, though dwarfed yet by the cities of Andalusia to the south. None of these towns are of an inspiring greatness, and many a man would could the lands of the King of Aragón small and poor.

    Spoiler for Map of Aragon and Navarre


    Please note that everything seen on this image is subject to change and does not represent the final product.
    The kingdom is certainly not as strong as it wants to be. Its landlocked position and pastoral economy means that it cannot match the wealth of Mediterranean Iberia. Similarly, its limited and sparsely populated land means that in terms of manpower it is unable to compete with its big neighbour of León-Castile in the west and even struggles to match the strength of the rival taifa of Saraqusta to the south. Yet historically it was capable of carving out one of the most powerful kingdoms of medieval Europe. This potential is there due to the strong diplomatic situation of the young kingdom. The relations with its Christian neighbours, though not always perfect, are good enough to ensure some security. More importantly, the Papal approval of the Reconquista provides the opportunity to wage war with the Islamic neighbours at will.

    How to achieve such lofty goals as crowning yourself Emperor of all Spain, the ambition of all Spanish kings, is for you to decide, but remember:

    The Dominion of the Sword is only for those who wield it.
    Mod Leader, Head of Research & Middle East Specialist

  2. #2

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Looks great And a bit unexpected, too

    C

  3. #3
    Iriasthor's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Nice to see a preview about my motherland! Actually I was not expecting a review about the Kingdom of Navarra, it greatly surprised me too! By the way, would it be possible to display some of the names in the native language (Basque or Euskara) such as 'Iruñea' instead of 'Pamplona' and 'Donostia' instead of 'San Sebastián'?

    Keep up the great work!

  4. #4
    Landil's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriasthor View Post
    Nice to see a preview about my motherland! Actually I was not expecting a review about the Kingdom of Navarra, it greatly surprised me too! By the way, would it be possible to display some of the names in the native language (Basque or Euskara) such as 'Iruñea' instead of 'Pamplona' and 'Donostia' instead of 'San Sebastián'?

    Keep up the great work!
    It is our intention to have all the settlement names be as authentic as possible yes, so expect to see many names corrected during the Beta. These kind of things are exactly why I put that disclaimer there.
    Mod Leader, Head of Research & Middle East Specialist

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    Iriasthor's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Nice to read that, I would love seeing settlements with Basque names. We love you and your work, guys!

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Nice to see you guys back. Nice preview.

    Good luck guys!

  7. #7
    xxxMoRaVexxx's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Well this is sudden, I thought work has stopped on this mod, never been so wrong. Keep up the work guys!





  8. #8

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    Nice to see the kingdom of Navarre depicted in the mod. Nice work . I'm also from this region too, from Pamplona exactly, and as a history lover I also have some suggestions about this:

    - At this time (1080 AC), it wasn't called Reino de Navarra (kingdom of Navarre) but Reino de Pamplona (kingdom of Pamplona). It was in 1162 AC when it became reino de Navarra.
    - Pamplona (in spanish) or Iruña (in basque) was a city located in a region in which, in that moment, basque was widely spread among the population. However Latin was the intitutional laguage at that moment, the original title for the king of Pamplona was "Pampilonensium Rex". Another language also popular at this time in this kingdom was "occitan" (which was also spoken along the south of France and some other regions in the north of Italy). So I don't know how you should name this city in your mod (may be what is easier for the player to understand).
    - Alava (Álava in spanish) or Araba (in basque) is not a city but a region. The city I think you mean is Vitoria (in spanish) or Gasteiz (in basque).
    - At this time San Sebastián and Vitoria didn't exist. They were founded in 1180 and 1181 by the king of Navarre.
    - I see it's written Rei Sancho in your picture (it's Rey in spanish).
    - Pallars should be located next to Urgell, in its left.
    - Sanguesa it's written Sangüesa in spanish. (I see you wrote Sanguesa Merindad. Merindad means town, more or less, in spanish. So I would leave the name for this town as Sangüesa).
    - I can't see whats written behind Sanguesa so I dont see if it's correct or not.

    So here it is my suggestions and corrections. It's up to you if you want to aplly changes or not. In any case, good job sir for yur work

    By the way, Aragón and Pamplona (Navarra as you name it incorrectly) were diferent kingdoms.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Landil; January 15, 2014 at 12:04 PM.

  9. #9
    Landil's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by gartxo View Post
    Nice to see the kingdom of Navarre depicted in the mod. Nice work . I'm also from this region too, from Pamplona exactly, and as a history lover I also have some suggestions about this:

    - At this time (1080 AC), it wasn't called Reino de Navarra (kingdom of Navarre) but Reino de Pamplona (kingdom of Pamplona). It was in 1162 AC when it became reino de Navarra.
    - Pamplona (in spanish) or Iruña (in basque) was a city located in a region in which, in that moment, basque was widely spread among the population. However Latin was the intitutional laguage at that moment, the original title for the king of Pamplona was "Pampilonensium Rex". Another language also popular at this time in this kingdom was "occitan" (which was also spoken along the south of France and some other regions in the north of Italy). So I don't know how you should name this city in your mod (may be what is easier for the player to understand).
    - Alava (Álava in spanish) or Araba (in basque) is not a city but a region. The city I think you mean is Vitoria (in spanish) or Gasteiz (in basque).
    - At this time San Sebastián and Vitoria didn't exist. They were founded in 1180 and 1181 by the king of Navarre.
    - I see it's written Rei Sancho in your picture (it's Rey in spanish).
    - Pallars should be located next to Urgell, in its left.
    - Sanguesa it's written Sangüesa in spanish. (I see you wrote Sanguesa Merindad. Merindad means town, more or less, in spanish. So I would leave the name for this town as Sangüesa).
    - I can't see whats written behind Sanguesa so I dont see if it's correct or not.

    So here it is my suggestions and corrections. It's up to you if you want to aplly changes or not. In any case, good job sir for yur work

    By the way, Aragón and Pamplona (Navarra as you name it incorrectly) were diferent kingdoms.

    I hope this helps.
    Thank you for the suggestions. Could you perhaps also post them in this thread for future reference by me?

    I do know that the kings of what would later be called Navarra styled themselves King of Pamplona in the 11th century AD, the term Navarre is used in the preview so that the less educated people also understand which region I'm talking about.

    Regarding all your other suggestions: as the disclaimer says, everything visible on that image is subject to change and does not represent the final product.

    Aragón and Pamplona were indeed different kingdoms, but during the reign of Sancho Ramírez they were joined under a single banner and as such can be called The Kingdom of Aragón and (of) Pamplona.
    Mod Leader, Head of Research & Middle East Specialist

  10. #10
    Ansark's Avatar Laetus
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    Default

    Nice to see a basque faction (in the original game, unfairly pamplona was a portuguese city).

    I am basque too, from Gipuzkoa. An I notice you that Bilbao (Bilbo in basque) and Gernika were founded in the XIV century so they weren't any cities with those names at the time of Sancho Ramirez reign.

    I also suggest you to change the banner, in wich only appears the aragonese symbol to another whit the symbols of both kingdoms, Pamplona and Aragon (like the castillian one, i don't know if it is historical, but it would be logical) if you prefer to be more accurate, it would be better to put only the Pamplonese banner, , . I think that the banner of pamplona should be the arrano beltza (it appears for the first time in a XII century document but i think it is the oldest known banner of Kingdomm of Navarre/Pamplona).

    Arrano beltza (the black eagle):



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrano_beltza

    And for the the e aragonese banner, i think that would be more apropiate:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of...rown_of_Aragon

    Sorry if i use a poor english, I'm still learning it.

    I can't edit my last post, so I make a correction: using only the aragonese banner would be as historical as using the Pamplonese one. So, you decide (I think that at XI century, the pamplonese kingdom was more powerful than the Aragonese, but as Sancho Ramirez was originally the king of Aragon...).
    Last edited by Landil; January 15, 2014 at 01:28 PM. Reason: merged posts

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    LordKainES's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriasthor View Post
    Nice to see a preview about my motherland! Actually I was not expecting a review about the Kingdom of Navarra, it greatly surprised me too! By the way, would it be possible to display some of the names in the native language (Basque or Euskara) such as 'Iruñea' instead of 'Pamplona' and 'Donostia' instead of 'San Sebastián'?

    Keep up the great work!

    The language spoked in Navarra in medieval ages was the "Romance-Navarrese" or Navarrese-Aragonese (Latin language)... Euskera had a very limited area of influence... because we are talking about medieval ages and not today... Euskera started to extend in early XX century due to nationalist rise up...

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    LordKainES's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    BTW Great preview!!! I´m glad to see the mod is still alive!!! Thank you!!!

  13. #13
    Ansark's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by LordKainES View Post
    The language spoked in Navarra in medieval ages was the "Romance-Navarrese" or Navarrese-Aragonese (Latin language)... Euskera had a very limited area of influence... because we are talking about medieval ages and not today... Euskera started to extend in early XX century due to nationalist rise up...
    That is'nt true. The bask spoken area was bigger in medieval ages than today.

    You can see clearly:


  14. #14
    Landil's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by LordKainES View Post
    The language spoked in Navarra in medieval ages was the "Romance-Navarrese" or Navarrese-Aragonese (Latin language)... Euskera had a very limited area of influence... because we are talking about medieval ages and not today... Euskera started to extend in early XX century due to nationalist rise up...
    Yes and no. While during the Middle Ages the Romance languages became prevalent in Iberia, in the 11th century AD Basque was relatively wide-spread in the region of Navarre, especially among the common people. Remember that Aragón, for example, is a toponym of Basque origin. It were the nobility and the clergy that promoted the use of Romance languages, which only truly gained the upper hand by the end of the Middle Ages.
    Mod Leader, Head of Research & Middle East Specialist

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansark View Post
    That is'nt true. The bask spoken area was bigger in medieval ages than today.

    You can see clearly:

    This map it´s unhistorical and very, very offensive for Valencian people. Keep your nationalism out of here.

  16. #16
    Landil's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by ValencianLanguag View Post
    This map it´s unhistorical and very, very offensive for Valencian people. Keep your nationalism out of here.
    He did not make that map, it's from wikipedia. It was posted here with the purpose of showing that the Basque language in the 11th century was in fact more prevalent than it is today. Don't go accusing people of ethnocentrism with equally ethnocentristic arguments if you don't understand the context something is posted in.
    Mod Leader, Head of Research & Middle East Specialist

  17. #17
    paradamed's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Good to see you guys have not abbandoned your project. Nice preview!

  18. #18
    Ansark's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    Quote Originally Posted by ValencianLanguag View Post
    This map it´s unhistorical and very, very offensive for Valencian people. Keep your nationalism out of here.
    Sorry, it wasn’t my intention to cause offence to anybody. I only pretended to defend the history of my mother tongue (as you have done in your reply). I knew that bask speakers are was bigger in the medieval ages than
    LordKainES said. I only put that map to prove it (there are more trusted proves, like an aragonese poster of XIV wich prohibits speak bask in a local fair, but i though the map was more visual).

    If to yo u want to argue about its accuracy, I took it from Wikipedia:

    http://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitxate...ern_Europe.gif

    PD: What is exactly the failure you see in the map? That it doesn’t differenciate Valencian from Catalan? Or something different?

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    PD: What is exactly the failure you see in the map? That it doesn’t differenciate Valencian from Catalan? Or something different?
    It doesn't differentiate Portuguese from Galician as well, Galician was a Celtic language and in a separate group entirely. I'm not a great expert in Iberia though.

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kingdom of Aragón and Navarre

    It is ok to discuss anything in the preview in whatever way you wish as long as you do not violate the rules of this site. However if you want to help us, we need the facts in proper context. The isolated facts are useless to us because we need to capture essentially dynamic and very long period in very static and limited modification of a game. That means aggregating information and states of everything so that it is the best possible representation of the given thing, place or character. For example the names of factions cannot change during the game and if the name of the faction changed some 50 years into the game IRL it would not be very representative to use it for the entire period. Similarly if the language was widespread in given region in 1080 but was replaced by 1150s but another language then the names of towns and characters would better be represented by the language that was dominant the longest and not the language that quickly faded after the game start. However to make such calls we need the context. How something was in 1080 is imporant but equally important is how it developed from then on in order to decide how to best represent it.

    Hopefully this clarifies few things and does not come across as too patronizing.

    Cheers and thanks for the interest!

    Mod Leader, Mapper & Bohemian Researcher

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