Spying overhaul

[Poach]

In short: new spy system. The current one is basically legal metagaming: you read a thread ooc, decide you want your character to know that, and ask for a roll. That's basically the definition of metagaming, yet for some reason that's our legal, in the rules spy system.

So, new system:

Spy Networks

Spy Networks

Prerequisite: Whisper House (province improvement, already exists), be Master of Whispers, or be a Merchant Prince. Unlocks: Spy Network In a Spy Network you may employ a maximum of five spies, each costing 30,000 dragons hire fee and 5,000 dragons salary. These spies may be sent to spy on specific characters, and can start feeding information back to their master after one week. Infiltration Roll: 1-5 spy caught during infiltration 6-13 spy unable to infiltrate 14-20 spy infiltrates You may then request one roll per week for information in an Information Roll: 1-5 spy is caught 6-10 no information gathered 11-13 vague information (eg, who they meet with, where they went) 14-16 some information (eg, the general tone of discussion: treason, rebellion, framing someone) 17-19 most information (eg, some specifics. Rebelling against the King, framing the Master of Laws) 20 everything If the spy is caught, he reveals information. This roll is +modified by the torturing characters counterspy trait. Torture Roll: 1-5 spy dies revealing nothing 6-10 spy survives, but cannot be cracked. He can be used as evidence if his employer can be determined through other means, or executed. 11-15 spy reveals his employer 16-20 spy reveals his employer and any information he's already passed back

* * *

New Master of Whispers ability

New Master of Whispers powers, replacing the first one he currently has: The master of whispers receives a 30,000 salary. He hires spies at half price and pays no upkeep.

* * *

Mods will keep a thread in the mod forum listing active spies and the years they rolled information for. I suggest this because the current spy mechanic is metagaming. "I want to know the info in that thread, let's spy roll".

Template will be, for example:

House Lefford spies.

1. Lord Tygett Gardener.
Infiltrated: 201AL
Last roll: 205AL

2. Ser Harrold Mudd.
Infiltrated: 203AL
Last roll: 204AL

3. Lord Walder Reyne
Infiltrated: 205AL
Last roll: Never. A week has not yet passed, rolls not available.

So on. A simple account of who I'm spying on and what year I last got a roll in.

This way, players need to actually send spies to people they think are suspicious in advance before they get any information. It eliminates the metagaming that is inherent in our current spy system.

With the new MoW salary maybe other small council positions need one, but that would need justified. Since this spy system costs money, and he's a spymaster, he needs money. The other positions don't really need money to do the job they're supposed to do.

I can't add a poll in Tapatalk. Can someone do that for me? 3 days, voter names visible.


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[Pinkerton]

I like it

Though you can only spy if you're a Lord or MoW. What about merchants? or other characters?

How does the Spy skill now works? Is it a + for rolls?

[Poach]

Spy skill is for your own character trying to do things, like Norne listening through those keyholes. The advantage of spying with a registered character is not being limited to one roll per year, not having to pay tens of thousands for that one roll, and having access to things like allies, reputation, and the ability to try to talk your way out if caught. An AI spy, when caught, is subject to rolls and has no alternatives.

This proposal only enables Lords and MoW to spy, do you think other classes should have access to it?


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[Pinkerton]

Spy skill is for your own character trying to do things, like Norne listening through those keyholes. The advantage of spying with a registered character is not being limited to one roll per year, not having to pay tens of thousands for that one roll, and having access to things like allies, reputation, and the ability to try to talk your way out if caught. An AI spy, when caught, is subject to rolls and has no alternatives.

This proposal only enables Lords and MoW to spy, do you think other classes should have access to it?


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But spying with a registered char is still limited to the characters you have infiltrated, right?

Indeed. Both the Queen and Littlefinger were not Lords or MoW yet they both had spies.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Maybe not Sellswords or Priest, but Merchants having access to a spy network might be a good addition.

[Zethira]

I can see merchants having access to a spy network as well, it's basically what amounts to insider trading.

[Jokern]

Merchant-, sellsword- and sellsail guilds should all be able to build a Whisper House and recruit spies. A wealthy merchant would most certainly have secret agents employed, and the Golden Company had a Spymaster in canon.

[jacb547]

The Queen was the queen and Littlefinger was a lord.

[Dirty Chai]

As long as you have the means, you should be able to afford spies.

[Lord Dread]

Damn, please include sellswords also.
One reason why I made up Baelish was also the spy network as I wanted to invest into that also, when my company has reached the 10k line. :/

[Zethira]

...Come to think of it, could we also set our spies to counterspy and make it harder for others to spy on us? Per-character basis of course, so if a spy is counterspying for Lord Meldred Baratheon then the extra counterspy applies only to conversations he's in, and not to his sons Galladon or Orys if they discuss his plans later on.

It makes sense for someone sending out spies to have a few people making sure he's not being spied on in turn.

[Lord Dread]

...Come to think of it, could we also set our spies to counterspy and make it harder for others to spy on us? Per-character basis of course, so if a spy is counterspying for Lord Meldred Baratheon then the extra counterspy applies only to conversations he's in, and not to his sons Galladon or Orys if they discuss his plans later on.

It makes sense for someone sending out spies to have a few people making sure he's not being spied on in turn.

Far by my knowledge, Counterspies already exist in our ruleset.
Or do you mean the specific use for them?

[Zethira]

Yeah, i meant specifically assigning hired spies to make it harder for people to spy on you.

Given that the amount of spies is capped at 5, it'd be a personal choice between offense or defense.

[Lord Dread]

Yeah, i meant specifically assigning hired spies to make it harder for people to spy on you.

Given that the amount of spies is capped at 5, it'd be a personal choice between offense or defense.

Guess this system does also apply on the counterspies.
Plus you are always able to give your characters the counterspy ability via traits.

[Zethira]

Yeah, more Counterspy Trait equals better odds of finding out information after they're caught, and Spy improves the odds of finding information, but it's kind of like the Siege stat. You can use it to assault a wall, or you can put him in a castle to improve its defenses. If you hire a Master or Guildmaster rank spy (assuming this doesn't replace the Spy quality tiers) it should be harder for a regular spy to successfully infiltrate the person or location that Master is protecting by virtue of his skills alone.

[Hengest]

This makes the nature of information totally up to the mods who can therefore manipulate the game even more. It's not really RP. The current system is a form of metagaming but it is also RP.
I vote no.

[Honors Bastion]

This makes the nature of information totally up to the mods who can therefore manipulate the game even more. It's not really RP. The current system is a form of metagaming but it is also RP.
I vote no.

I don't know what you are reading Hengest, but this proposal does nothing to increase the power of the mods. On the contrary, it actually removes some power from the mods. Before, when anyone requested a spy roll, the requester had to provide a valid RP reason for why the spy roll was being done and it was up to the mods to determine if that reason was valid enough reason for the roll to be done. This proposal actually takes this decision out of the mods hand's per say.

[Adamat]

What? The information you get doesn't change, it just makes sure that you need to decide you want to spy on someone before an interesting conversation happens.

[Lord Dread]

What? The information you get doesn't change, it just makes sure that you need to decide you want to spy on someone before an interesting conversation happens.

To be honest: That's how I always wanted to see the spy system.
With this rule things like for example my Bolton plot against Stark would have probably made another turn.

[Dirty Chai]

This changes nothing Hengest, nothing in the matter of information.