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Thread: The Satan of Oklahoma

  1. #181

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    I find Satan to be more of a Prometheus-like figure, then some sort of villain. If you look at the Old Testament, for example, Satan there is a much more positive figure then "yhwh" himself, who kills millions of people for stupid reasons, while Lucifer gave men knowledge.

  2. #182
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    clone,

    That's quite true but since Adam it has become a fallen nature in the eyes of God. That's why rebirth is so important because even the smallest iota of sin has to be punished and that before death. Satan cannot help all his followers do this but the thing is that they are so deluded they believe he has that capacity.
    What gives god the right to decide what is sin and what the punishment should be? Who put him in charge?
    If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country.

  3. #183
    alex man142's Avatar Decanus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    What gives god the right to decide what is sin and what the punishment should be? Who put him in charge?
    If God is God, then whatever he picks is good. If He made the world, than He chooses what is good and evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I find Satan to be more of a Prometheus-like figure, then some sort of villain. If you look at the Old Testament, for example, Satan there is a much more positive figure then "yhwh" himself, who kills millions of people for stupid reasons, while Lucifer gave men knowledge.
    I find that, frankly, completely incorrect.

    Lucifer is the one who causes death. Just look at the first few chapters of Genesis. Adam and Eve had it perfect, until Satan came in and mucked everything up. I am actually wondering how you could even come up to such conclusions based on even a skimming of the Biblical text.
    Last edited by pacifism; April 21, 2015 at 11:26 PM. Reason: double posts merged




  4. #184
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alex man142 View Post
    If God is God, then whatever he picks is good. If He made the world, than He chooses what is good and evil.
    No doubt that's the theory. But what if not all god's choices are correct and suitable to human life and nature. After all he is another and totally different being and can very well be mislead from his things to human nature. Requiring too much or inpossible. Should a man be a machine for god fullfilling all chosen for him by so distant and different from everything in the world creature. Suppose for ex. chastity is really the best. But what if people don't understand it and do not want to go that far ?

  5. #185

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alex man142 View Post
    If God is God, then whatever he picks is good. If He made the world, than He chooses what is good and evil.
    Ethics changes on a dime.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  6. #186
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    There is a Socratic dialogue exactly about that idea (whether ethics is the same or more, or less, than what a god wants). Iirc it is the Euthyphro dialogue

    (btw, don't bother with the wiki link, i just read it and it is very bad and as usual not a correct account of things).
    Last edited by Kyriakos; April 21, 2015 at 04:53 AM.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #187

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    There is a Socratic dialogue exactly about that idea (whether ethics is the same or more, or less, than what a god wants). Iirc it is the Euthyphro dialogue

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro

    (haven't read it, btw, but know of its premise and theme).
    It may or may not in the large picture of society, the possibility of whether it can due to single people letting it for their own unique picture of the world is what I discuss.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #188
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    What gives god the right to decide what is sin and what the punishment should be? Who put him in charge?
    Winston Smith,

    Well, if it weren't for God putting the breath of life into you, you wouldn't be here today. There isn't a thing in all creation that He does not sustain by the power of His will and you are one of them. Therefore that gives Him the right to dictate what is sinful and what is not. God is not a democracy by the fact that He is One God in three Personages, Father, Son and Holy Spirit who each have certain things to do yet they all speak with One voice. You can of course debate that but the truth is it is not negotiable. Without God nothing would be here.

  9. #189
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Winston Smith,

    Well, if it weren't for God putting the breath of life into you, you wouldn't be here today. There isn't a thing in all creation that He does not sustain by the power of His will and you are one of them. Therefore that gives Him the right to dictate what is sinful and what is not. God is not a democracy by the fact that He is One God in three Personages, Father, Son and Holy Spirit who each have certain things to do yet they all speak with One voice. You can of course debate that but the truth is it is not negotiable. Without God nothing would be here.
    Well, I entirely disagree with that, root and stem. More to the point, I fail to see how, in the words of the late Christopher Hitchens, how a celestial dictatorship is in anyway a preferable thing. Even if god existed as you say, he would be no more worthy of worship then a member of the Kim family. I mean, I love my parents dearly, but I do not obey them in everything. That would be silly.

    You also propose that I do not rely on reason, on logic, but just plain acceptance. It's a profoundly strange and uncomfortable notion, and one I reject, that I be asked to bow without response.
    Last edited by Winston Smith; April 21, 2015 at 04:13 PM.
    If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country.

  10. #190

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    5730
    Satan or Lucifer, or maybe God set up a bureau, seem to be there to test mankind. So if you make the wrong decision, it's your fault.

    Though in Job's case, it does appear that God selected him to be a lab rat.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  11. #191
    clone's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alex man142 View Post
    If God is God, then whatever he picks is good. If He made the world, than He chooses what is good and evil.

    as a christian i strongly disagree with this.
    1 helping others is not good because gods says it but because its good by its self.the same way killing people without reason is bad regardless of what the god says about it
    2 secondly god's will exists only in a book and this book can be understood only if someone read it and interpret it. so gods will is not 100% gods will but rather the human intepretacion of gods will
    When a nation forgets her skill in war, when her religion becomes a mockery, when the whole nation becomes a nation of money-grabbers, then the wild tribes, the barbarians drive in... Who will our invaders be? From whence will they come?”
    Robert E. Howard



  12. #192

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by alex man142 View Post

    I find that, frankly, completely incorrect.

    Lucifer is the one who causes death. Just look at the first few chapters of Genesis. Adam and Eve had it perfect, until Satan came in and mucked everything up. I am actually wondering how you could even come up to such conclusions based on even a skimming of the Biblical text.
    Lucifer ("bringer of light", anyone?) allowed them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, while yhwh would prefer to keep them ignorant and happy. "Yhwh" "punishes" whole nations and murders millions of people, while Lucifer gave people... choice.

  13. #193
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Lucifer ("bringer of light", anyone?) allowed them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, while yhwh would prefer to keep them ignorant and happy. "Yhwh" "punishes" whole nations and murders millions of people, while Lucifer gave people... choice.
    Heathen Hammer,

    No, the serpent persuaded Eve that God didn't mean what He laid down as the rules regarding them staying in the garden. Once they had eaten, they knew immediately their mistake and when confronted by God their excuse was the persuasion of Eve by the serpent. So, was God responsible? Nope, that lay fair and square with the serpent. He caused the millions of dead that followed simply because of what he did in the garden.

  14. #194

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    In the text, the serpent does nothing but tell Eve the truth. God lied to her about what eating the fruit would do.

    3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?
    2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
    6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
    God made us happy but ignorant. The Serpent helped us become human.
    Last edited by Sphere; April 27, 2015 at 07:02 PM.

  15. #195

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    The truth hurts?

    >.>
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  16. #196
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    In the text, the serpent does nothing but tell Eve the truth. God lied to her about what eating the fruit would do.
    God made us happy but ignorant. The Serpent helped us become human.
    Sphere,

    How did God lie? As a result of them falling into sin was death not the result of it? The serpent told her that she surely would not die but she did so how was God a liar?

  17. #197

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Sphere,

    How did God lie? As a result of them falling into sin was death not the result of it? The serpent told her that she surely would not die but she did so how was God a liar?
    Really? God has to avoid telling the full truth, much less speaking symbolically to not-smart people, to do get people to do what he wants? In our society not telling the full truth, much less speaking symbolically to not-smart people, is often regarded as some sort of lie. I'm not sure where you live though.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  18. #198
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Really? God has to avoid telling the full truth, much less speaking symbolically to not-smart people, to do get people to do what he wants? In our society not telling the full truth, much less speaking symbolically to not-smart people, is often regarded as some sort of lie. I'm not sure where you live though.
    Gaidin,

    So what did God hold back then?

  19. #199

    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    I see no reason to quote scripture twice. They didn't die. He spoke symbolically to people unable to process symbolism. If he wanted this at all understood he probably should've spent another 100 words on it. Unless he wanted to go on his ego trip through the New Testement by having Man fall after, you know...the Serpent told the truth. Ironically.

    You know what. Jump through your hoops to justify it again. We know you will.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  20. #200
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Satan of Oklahoma

    Says something about the people who wrote this stuff when the first thing they figure out after eating the fruit is that being naked is sinful, though one wonders if that being naked is sinful then why did god let them walk around naked in ignorant bliss?


    Also is Satan even the serpent? as far as i can tell that's something that was added later.

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