Spartan army composition

[Frtigern]

I would like to roleplay a Spartan-centric KH army that is highly disciplined and highly trained with a focus on melee infantry. What would be an ideal composition for a Spartan army of this time?

Somatophylakes Strategou (Greek General)
Spartiatai Hoplitai (Spartan Hoplites)
Samnitici Milites (Samnite Heavy Infantry)
Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry)

Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai (Greek Phalanx)

Toxotai Kretikoi (Kretan Archers)
Thraikioi Peltastai (Thraikian Peltasts)

Hippeis Tarantinoi (Tarantine Elite Cavalry)
Hetairoi Aspidophoroi (Hellenic Heavy Skirmisher Cavalry)

Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry)
Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry)
Hippeis Thessalikoi (Thessalian Heavy Cavalry)

I would like 1/3 of the army to be 5 spartan hoplites and the general. I don't want to fight with phalanxes unless absolutely necessary. I would rather have my Spartans pin any phalanx and have my heavy infantry or cavalry flank. Then 4 Samnites or Thracians, 2 Kretans, 2 Thracian skirmishers, 2 missile cavalry, and 4 heavy cavalry.

Does that sound good to you? What would/have you done to reflect a Spartan KH?

[seleucid empire]

do you want it to be historically accurate???

If so, I would say:

KH general x 1
Slingers x 3
Standard Hoplites x 4
Spartans x 3
The Greek Phalanx, the one you get from reforms x 3
Hippeis x 2
Peltastai x 2
2 Merc Units

My justification for this line up is:

Sparta never had great cavalry so hippeis would be their main cavalry
Spartan Homoioi hoplies were rare hence only 3 units
Slingers as skirmishers were common enough
Peltastai are a staple for any KH army
The standard hoplites would represent the spartan perioikoi, the non spartan citizens
And the reformed phalanx, sparta historically did use against Macedonia but they didnt have them in enough numbers


this line up is just for historical accuracy or role play tho. The army itself is rather mediocre

[yuezhi]

Thrakian barbaros in that awesome Hellenai army!?

Blasphemy!

[Frtigern]

Thrakian barbaros in that awesome Hellenai army!?

Blasphemy!

Didn't Sparta recruit many mercenaries in its armies? What kind of mercenaries were they and from where?

I like the Thracian peltasts more than the Hellenic ones. Their AP sidearm gives them an extra ability that I can use as flankers, and they are good at hiding. Is it possible to edit Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry) into the KH roster once Demetrias or Pella are both taken?

My roleplaying goal is that as Sparta unites the Greek peninsula and encounters better equipped, better trained and organized veterans of the Successors it chooses to rapidly train and recruit a professional combined arms army that is all around capable of defeating different kind of units and armies, instead of levy hoplites of other city-states.

[Ownager]

Greek Mercenary scum in a Karthadastim army?
Madness!

[Ownager]

That would be ahistorical, and I personally don't change anything in the game. Why disturb the perfect balance?

[Frtigern]

That would be ahistorical, and I personally don't change anything in the game. Why disturb the perfect balance?

Everything in the game is ahistorical from the end of the first turn, and there is really not much we can do about it. Sure, the script tries to keep things within historical ball-fields, yet EB cannot replicate history perfectly. I only ask if its possible, not that I will do it. Alexander historically recruited men from where they came from. The regional MICs reflect this. Historically the KH didn't venture far from their peninsula, but it doesn't mean I have to be content with it. RTW code is open for all to change and edit as they please. If we couldn't, there would be no mods, or EB as we know it. The greatest mod of RTW! Just because I have a couple Peltastai Makedonikoi in an army doesn't mean that the whole balance of the game will crumble.

[Ownager]

No, my only thought was that if EB is the greatest, why change it further? Every thing has its reasons. Do it if you want, actually I would love to give Makedon Thorakitai and change the Casse Bodyguards to Calawre.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I've changed my EDU to make the KH bodyguards into Greek Noble Cavalry. That way FM's can be better protected, and gives KH a small force of heavy cavalry to offset the Macedonian Companion cavalry.

For KH armies I recruit a couple of mercenary Hellenic medium phalanxes to serve as the core of the battle line, and put hoplites (Spartan and/or Classical) on either side.

[Ownager]

How do you do that? I would love to have Casse units on foot. That would probably sway me right over to them.

[athanaric]

There was a thread explaining how to turn Casse bodyguards into Rycalawre (making them absolutely beastly infantry) some time ago. Not sure whether on this forum or on the .org forum. If you don't find it, ask Titus Marcellus Scato how to do it, since the mechanics are the same for the other BG units.

For KH, I think infantry BGs are just fine, but I guess it's a matter of taste.

My Spartan composition would be based on the units recruitable in Sparta itself, which would be Spartan Hoplites, regular Hoplites, Peltastai, KH phalanx pikemen, and various psiloi (though among those, I usually only use the slingers). Also Hippeis, and maybe some other type of Greek cavalry representing "allied forces" (sort of like the socii in Roman armies), e.g. Hippeis Xystophoroi and Hippakontistai. Maybe some other "allied" stuff as well, for example Athenian, Cretan, or Rhodian units.

[Ownager]

Rycalawre seem too OP for bodyguards, especially before the reforms. I would probably settle for a good unit like Briton Midlander Champions or something. Since I played pretty ahistorical,y in RTW as Greek City-States, I can't really offer advice. Since every time I start a KH campaign, I get dismayed by loss of income.

[seleucid empire]

Rycalawre seem too OP for bodyguards, especially before the reforms. I would probably settle for a good unit like Briton Midlander Champions or something. Since I played pretty ahistorical,y in RTW as Greek City-States, I can't really offer advice. Since every time I start a KH campaign, I get dismayed by loss of income.

This is probably due to the ships you start with. Also your spartan body guard units seem to have a maintenance cost other bg units don't have

[Ownager]

I remove those ships first thing, after transporting Areus in. Even when I disband my Kretans I still maintain the same problem. The Spartans are unique right? Since the rest of the guards besides Spartan generals are the regular Greek bodyguard infantry.

[seleucid empire]

I remove those ships first thing, after transporting Areus in. Even when I disband my Kretans I still maintain the same problem. The Spartans are unique right? Since the rest of the guards besides Spartan generals are the regular Greek bodyguard infantry.

Yeah the Spartans cost like 700 extra on top of what they already take from the cities, you start with 2-3 units or these I think so its expensive. Have you tried putting taxes on VH early? I'm usually only down 2000 if I use VH taxes take Krete turn one and disband ships

[athanaric]

I remove those ships first thing, after transporting Areus in.

IMO the best thing to do is to either bring the entire Kretan army, or storm Krete at turn 1, ship over most of the Kretan forces (especially those archers), and afterwards use your fleet to attack the Makedonian one until one of the fleets is destroyed (if yours survives, you may still opt for retraining the remainder later). That way, you'll be able to lift one or two of the early and very annoying port blockades, and you'll weaken the enemy's naval capacity.
I've also tried transporting one or two units from the Rhodian garrison to help out on the mainland, which can work as well if you're careful.

I tried that multiple times, but while Athens and Sparta get a good profit, Rhodes has a 2000 deficit per turn.

What counts is your net income on the income tab. Cranking up taxes at the start is a very good idea for just about any faction.

[Ownager]

I tried that multiple times, but while Athens and Sparta get a good profit, Rhodes has a 2000 deficit per turn.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

KH really needs to blitz three cities at the beginning of the campaign: e.g. Kydonia, Chalkis and Corinth if you're staying in Greece. Kydonia and Chalkis in the first two turns if you can, Corinth as soon as possible thereafter.

See guide: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...or-new-players

Or if you can't face Macedon, then resign yourself to losing Athens and Sparta (remembering to destroy all their buildings before they fall!), and migrate your army somewhere else, e.g. Sicily, southern Gaul, eastern Spain or the Bosphoros (Crimea), and make a new home. You could even be heroically brave and make a glorious attempt to smash the Romans, like Pyrrhus did! Sparta or Rome, there can be only one in the end...

[Ownager]

Is that the EB blitzing guide? I was pretty sure I could hold the walls of Athens with Spartan hoplites, so I sent all my generals there. I didn't even think of stepping out until old Antigonos went north.

[seleucid empire]

Btw on the subject of changing the chariot bgs of casse. That would probably make the casse campaign harder. With your starting army you could probably conquer 2-3 settlements since the chariot makes enemy units rout so fast. The British rebel settlements start off with much better armies than yours. With your chariots you can cause a mass rout in seconds. I have seen an unit of rebel Druids (they might have been mid lanes champs actually. I can't remember but they were elites) rout despite only having suffered 10 casualties because of the chariots. With rycalre you probably wouldn't be able to do that. It would force you to play a turtle campaign where you still have only 1 settlement at 260 BC

changing the Greek gens to noble cav might make some sense but at the same time I feel that I really need those heavy inf units early game. Having a line with only levy hoplites and that one unit of true hoplites you start with to stiffen them doesn't seem enough to hold Macedonian phalanxes. How does it work out for you Titus Marcellus scato?