Weapon Deadliness vs Initiative

[N0vaxz]

What is the difference between these two?

[xernoxis]

Spears and pikes have good initiative because they are long so they hit before short swords. The way I figured it is that initiative is better in the first encounter, but deadliness is better over time.

[Butan]

That must be it.

Also the initiative works as long as you are using your primary weapon I think.

Example : pikes vs swords


Pike will hit first all the time, but when the unit get close and force you to switch to sword yourself, the advantage will be nullified.

[smodi]

I, for one, wouldnt mind a more thorough explanation of deadliness vs initiative. Conceptually I get it just fine, but I'd like some cold hard numbers to back it up.

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

Also does this mean that spears will always lose to swords because first encounter only lasts seconds.

[smodi]

Also does this mean that spears will always lose to swords because first encounter only lasts seconds.

In general terms, higher initiative units are superior to lower initiative units in front to front combat. It was explained in a thread awhile back that spears basically always beats swords due to higher initiative, but suffer from poor melee attack stats (and need to be in formation), so they're poor choices for any kind of flanking actions. Which is all well and good, but is still much too general for my tastes.

[Lieutenant Sharpe]

In general terms, higher initiative units are superior to lower initiative units in front to front combat. It was explained in a thread awhile back that spears basically always beats swords due to higher initiative, but suffer from poor melee attack stats (and need to be in formation), so they're poor choices for any kind of flanking actions. Which is all well and good, but is still much too general for my tastes.

Ah ok, so from the front spears will win if they are in formation, but otherwise swords will win. Thanks.

[Hetairos]

lets bring this up again I still haven't found a solid explanation about weapon deadliness and weapon initiative. anyone who can help?

I want to complete this guide in here: Modding Guide for Novices. Those two stats are the only ones I haven't found anything solid yet (except how it could / should work theoretically)

[damien007]

Initiative: Determines who attacks first in combat

Deadlines: Is basically melee AP, indicates some damage will be done by every attack even if it's blocked.

[Wolfrum]

I think the general rule is that units with higher initiative are better as flanking units while deadliness is better used for extended combat (like the main battle line).

[Butan]

That would be the contrary for me.


Initiative is good at meeting the enemy frontally since they will deal their damage first. Also most high initiative units also have high melee defense or good defensive formations, which are perfect to hold a line.

Then deadliness is good at anything that doesnt kill them too fast, so that they can use their AP melee damage the longest. The problem arise that most high deadliness units doesnt have very good melee defense nor defensive formations, they mostly have a better melee attack and charge bonus. Thus if you use them against high initiative high melee defense units, they will receive a lot more hits than they deal. The few they will deal will hit hard but not always hard enough.

For me deadliness is very good against units which have high melee defense/armour (which deadliness overrides) but low initiative/melee attack/melee damage, and good against anyone who has no initiative. They are also good at attacking flanks/rear of powerful units since they will have less problem from good positioning.
Initiative is "only" good at holding any enemy in place, but combined with average/good melee attack and/or defense, it gets insanely powerful, especially when you get them to meet all your enemies at the front.



If there was a battle where no flank/rear charges were allowed, and you had only a balanced mix of infantry, I feel it would be always best to meet deadliness with deadliness, and initiative with initiative. Then the winner would probably be the less easily tired units


Edit : one example to illustrate my thoughts would be when one general unit of spartan hoplites routed 2 italian swordsmen and badly wounded 1 other single handedly on a settlement wall. The width of the wall helped, but fact is the high deadliness wasnt enough to destroy the high initiative/high melee attack/defense of the elite spear unit.

[Hetairos]

That would be the contrary for me.


Initiative is good at meeting the enemy frontally since they will deal their damage first. Also most high initiative units also have high melee defense or good defensive formations, which are perfect to hold a line.

Then deadliness is good at anything that doesnt kill them too fast, so that they can use their AP melee damage the longest. The problem arise that most high deadliness units doesnt have very good melee defense nor defensive formations, they mostly have a better melee attack and charge bonus. Thus if you use them against high initiative high melee defense units, they will receive a lot more hits than they deal. The few they will deal will hit hard but not always hard enough.

For me deadliness is very good against units which have high melee defense/armour (which deadliness overrides) but low initiative/melee attack/melee damage, and good against anyone who has no initiative. They are also good at attacking flanks/rear of powerful units since they will have less problem from good positioning.
Initiative is "only" good at holding any enemy in place, but combined with average/good melee attack and/or defense, it gets insanely powerful, especially when you get them to meet all your enemies at the front.



If there was a battle where no flank/rear charges were allowed, and you had only a balanced mix of infantry, I feel it would be always best to meet deadliness with deadliness, and initiative with initiative. Then the winner would probably be the less easily tired units


Edit : one example to illustrate my thoughts would be when one general unit of spartan hoplites routed 2 italian swordsmen and badly wounded 1 other single handedly on a settlement wall. The width of the wall helped, but fact is the high deadliness wasnt enough to destroy the high initiative/high melee attack/defense of the elite spear unit.

Exactly. That are the correct mechanics. However there are a few questions that haven't been answered yet in all the weapon ini/dead threads out there.

1.) How does the simplest combat mechanic in Rome II work = the attack? e.g. When is an attack initiated / triggered? I mean what we know for sure is that once an attack has been initiated we have the first dice roll (melee attack vs melee defense) that will define if the attack will hit and if so how much base damage will be applied. However, what defines which soldier initiates an attack? Is it a dice roll that is being done before melee attack vs melee defense we do not know about? Or is it a certain amount of melee attacks per minute? But even if we know, how does it work in melee (1man vs 1man) do they alternate their attacks like every turn? Or once again, maybe a dice roll that defines who will attack in the next round (if so than weapon initiative would make sense by providing a bonus for the initiative unit that increases the chance to win the dice roll concerning who will attack in the next attack round)? lol my english I hope you understand what I mean.
2.) Why do we need weapon deadliness, when we could have had melee armor piercing damage. Melee AP would have shown us directly the effect that is applied but what the hell does weapon deadliness of 1-4 mean? Is it a number of damage? Is it a multiplier? If we had only AP lets say of 5 per hit it would be clear that this will be 5 damage subtracted from remaining health e.g. 100-5=95

Does anybody know the answer for those question?

[bacchus731]

Exactly. That are the correct mechanics. However there are a few questions that haven't been answered yet in all the weapon ini/dead threads out there.

1.) How does the simplest combat mechanic in Rome II work = the attack? e.g. When is an attack initiated / triggered? I mean what we know for sure is that once an attack has been initiated we have the first dice roll (melee attack vs melee defense) that will define if the attack will hit and if so how much base damage will be applied. However, what defines which soldier initiates an attack? Is it a dice roll that is being done before melee attack vs melee defense we do not know about? Or is it a certain amount of melee attacks per minute? But even if we know, how does it work in melee (1man vs 1man) do they alternate their attacks like every turn? Or once again, maybe a dice roll that defines who will attack in the next round (if so than weapon initiative would make sense by providing a bonus for the initiative unit that increases the chance to win the dice roll concerning who will attack in the next attack round)? lol my english I hope you understand what I mean.
2.) Why do we need weapon deadliness, when we could have had melee armor piercing damage. Melee AP would have shown us directly the effect that is applied but what the hell does weapon deadliness of 1-4 mean? Is it a number of damage? Is it a multiplier? If we had only AP lets say of 5 per hit it would be clear that this will be 5 damage subtracted from remaining health e.g. 100-5=95

Does anybody know the answer for those question?

I'm also seeking the truth on these matters! Would love to hear from the people who balance the units because they must have a great understanding.

[Wolfrum]

That would be the contrary for me.


Initiative is good at meeting the enemy frontally since they will deal their damage first. Also most high initiative units also have high melee defense or good defensive formations, which are perfect to hold a line.

Then deadliness is good at anything that doesnt kill them too fast, so that they can use their AP melee damage the longest. The problem arise that most high deadliness units doesnt have very good melee defense nor defensive formations, they mostly have a better melee attack and charge bonus. Thus if you use them against high initiative high melee defense units, they will receive a lot more hits than they deal. The few they will deal will hit hard but not always hard enough.

For me deadliness is very good against units which have high melee defense/armour (which deadliness overrides) but low initiative/melee attack/melee damage, and good against anyone who has no initiative. They are also good at attacking flanks/rear of powerful units since they will have less problem from good positioning.
Initiative is "only" good at holding any enemy in place, but combined with average/good melee attack and/or defense, it gets insanely powerful, especially when you get them to meet all your enemies at the front.



If there was a battle where no flank/rear charges were allowed, and you had only a balanced mix of infantry, I feel it would be always best to meet deadliness with deadliness, and initiative with initiative. Then the winner would probably be the less easily tired units


Edit : one example to illustrate my thoughts would be when one general unit of spartan hoplites routed 2 italian swordsmen and badly wounded 1 other single handedly on a settlement wall. The width of the wall helped, but fact is the high deadliness wasnt enough to destroy the high initiative/high melee attack/defense of the elite spear unit.

Ahhh, great explanation. Disregard everything I said

[Butan]

I dont think there is only one version of the truth that game is so complex that what I said will be terribly wrong in some situations, and using high deadliness units on a battleline may be very effective in other circumstances.

[Hetairos]

Selea, Dresden and Co. maybe you can share your experience with us? I simply can't find anything clear in the net. Months ago I had a thread that explained that pretty awesomely but it seems this thread was deleted by the mods (CA's forum). I would love to include those into my modding guide for novices to complete the combat mechanics guide. those are the two remaining stats we do not have a clear statement yet.

[student23]

I dont really know if the mechanics of deadliness are responsible for 60%+ of combatants just "folding" after being struck 5 times on their shield. But then I dont really understand squat how the rome vanilla engine worked or how this one does it. I only know, as a watcher of slow-mo-melees-because-my-rig-is-effin-awesome, I miss a lot of the bloody animations. Dunno.

[Hetairos]

I still believe that things like weapon initiative / weapon deadliness and formation attack are the great mysteries of rome II! even people are providing plenty of explanation which seem like being true nobody REALLY know what it does. Even the simplest question I had was never really answered. What decides which soldiers of a front line attacks first? Is it decided on a unit base percentage or per duel. Also how many times do soldiers attack per second etc. etc. No answers to those questions yet, and really only a CA dev could answer that in my opinion.

[KAM 2150]

I can check on Sunday two units of hoplites with the same stats, but one will get weapon deadliness and other with get weapon initiative. If I won't break anything with PFM it should give us something.

As for FA, it gives various bonuses, for Spartan Hoplites it is +2 vs infantry i think.

[Hetairos]

As far as FA, I know about the bonuses the DeI team assigned to FA (maybe CA also did that!). BUT what we do not know is what the formation itself actually does (FA and default without any bonuses assigned).