Why can't Japan and china shake hands like Germany and France did in the past?

[Mary The Quene]

So the prime minister Shinzo Abe visited the Yasukuni shrine a few days ago and this has as expected created infuriated China because of the ww2 past.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25517205

But i find this ironic because China honours Mao Zedong , the man who murdered 5 000 000 0 people, way more then criminal Hideki Tojo did (5 000 000)

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/chin...013173723.html
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html (number)

so whats your opinion?

[Hoplite of Ilis]

They really can't agree on Kung fu being better than Karate! Or was it the other way around?...

[visser300]

Or it is just a bloody execuse for China to make provocation to change status quo in the region?

[Aymer de Valence]

Maybe it would help if the Japanese actually owned up to what they did in the war (and not just to the Chinese) instead of pretending it never happened + editing textbooks etc?

[Condottiere 40K]

Chinese collective consciousness hasn't recovered from Samurai subjugation shock.

Only after the establishment of the Wa Autonomous Region.

[conon394]

So the prime minister Shinzo Abe visited the Yasukuni shrine a few days ago and this has as expected created infuriated China because of the ww2 past.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25517205

But i find this ironic because China honours Mao Zedong , the man who murdered 5 000 000 0 people, way more then criminal Hideki Tojo did (5 000 000)

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/chin...013173723.html
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html (number)

so whats your opinion?

Odd play by Abe right after China's recent actions looked to pushing South Korea toward Japan.

I would agree Japan got 'Lucky" if you will with no final titanic struggle (Ketsu go/operation Downfall) many things did not happen the Japanese (say for example the execution many lied POWs). Japan also got as result the Atomic bombings and the perception of them say starting in the 60s a certain sympathy narrative that Germany never had. Beyond that there was the cold war As a loyal, key democratic ally of the US there was not a lot of incentive to make Japan say not aggravate China or settle and disputes with Russia etc. The fact that Japan's crimes in China often more diffuse than the easy footage of Nazi Death Camp [Also the Japanese actually did very good job of destroying records as well] adds up to most people (outside of China, Taiwan, South Korea) don't really even likely think about Japan in the same way as Germany so Japan can more easy slide of having to remember or be more diplomatically nice about it.

However China is the key really the authoritarian oligarchs that rule it clearly see nationalism as a tool to provide for their legitimacy and distract the average man on the street from wanting to vote or economic inequality etc.

[Ciciro]

Because the Germans didn't kill millions of French people then deny that it ever happened.

[caratacus]

The recent visit of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to the Yasukuni WW2 shrine, really does show how relations between these two countries have declined in 2013. In doing this at a time when tensions are so high, was to makie a statement to China, in the expectation of getting a strong reaction. The reason is simple, he wanted to justify to the Japanese people a policy of breaking away from Japan's neutral status and prepare for the possibility of a conflict over territorial claims. It could be playing hard ball, it could be serious but any significant build up of military hardware within the East China Sea, is not good for peace and stability.

I think all three of the so called super powers and the United Nations have done little to try a deescalation of these tensions in the region which together with the situation in North Korea, could make the prospect of some kind of armed conflict in 2014 conceivable. Claims to oil and gas reserves outstanding, there needs to be a coming together of these two countries to promote trust, understanding and forgiveness for past events, especially the latter, and I just can't see any effort being done to do so. Obama in particular, should ask himself whether he has done very much in smoothing down relations between China and Japan or tackling the thorny problem of North Korea's nuclear ambitions. The situation is difficult for the U.S. despite all the comments about a rivalry between China and America, the two are very strongly linked commercially and Japan knows this, which is why there might be an element of mistrust creeping in, as to whether push comes to shove, Obama will be standing squarely behind them. For this reason, I think we will be seeing more of an assertive Japan this year than has been the case before. I note that the decision to grant permission to the much controversial relocation of the Americans air base at Okinawa, which has dragged on for years, came very soon after the shrine visit and you wonder whether this was also not co-incidental.

What transpired in WW2 was absolutely appalling and view of the Japanese by many Chinese is still framed by those events. But the present tensions between China and Japan do not stem directly from that but of the present economic and political situation of today.

[Col. Tartleton]

There will have to be a war in that region eventually. The lines are fairly clearly drawn, the hatreds are now generational, and the geopolitical conflict remains fresh every year.

The only reason there isn't war is that it would be damaging globally and nationally in terms of economy.

Things will fluctuate between high and low tensions, and if things escalate during a period of high tension we can expect a "regional world war" situation.

It's harder to have a war like that now than it was 70-100 years ago. But it's still a possibility.

[conon394]

There will have to be a war in that region eventually. The lines are fairly clearly drawn, the hatreds are now generational, and the geopolitical conflict remains fresh every year.

The only reason there isn't war is that it would be damaging globally and nationally in terms of economy.

Things will fluctuate between high and low tensions, and if things escalate during a period of high tension we can expect a "regional world war" situation.

It's harder to have a war like that now than it was 70-100 years ago. But it's still a possibility.

Maybe but its hard to path to a knock down drag out real hard core war. The wild card is always North Korea, they don't have economy to be worth loosing and they are nuts and so could spark off something big. Outside of that I can see tension and incidents but outside of an India/China boarder war is hard to not see just contained sea/air skirmishes on the lines of somebody makes a mistake and stuff gets used but not policy and not a general war. I mean really look at all the tension in the Korean peninsula and the provocative crap the North does and it still has not touched off a war

[Sir Winston Churchill]

War this, war that, there won't be a war. The JDF is capable but poses no real threat against the PLR. With the US as a Japanese ally, China will be very slow to actually come to blows with Japan. This is all sabre rattling while the swords are locked in with pins.

[Knight of Heaven]

War this, war that, there won't be a war. The JDF is capable but poses no real threat against the PLR. With the US as a Japanese ally, China will be very slow to actually come to blows with Japan. This is all sabre rattling while the swords are locked in with pins.

Indeed. Besides Abe is doing what is best for him, and to apease his electorate after all.

[O'Hea]

The simplest explanation is that the French and Germans don't get along because they learned to like each other, they got along because they were united in opposition to the Soviets. China and Japan never stopped being geopolitical rivals for a second.

Unfortunately I think Tartleton might be right. There are a lot of stabilizing influences in the region right now (American naval dominance, Japan's 'peace' constitution, the PRC's risk-averse nature) but all the necessary causes for conflict are there and look like they'll be persistent. There are a lot of unresolved tensions in Asia and it's hard to predict what'll come of it.

[Sphere]

The simplest explanation is that the French and Germans don't get along because they learned to like each other, they got along because they were united in opposition to the Soviets. China and Japan never stopped being geopolitical rivals for a second.

Unfortunately I think Tartleton might be right. There are a lot of stabilizing influences in the region right now (American naval dominance, Japan's 'peace' constitution, the PRC's risk-averse nature) but all the necessary causes for conflict are there and look like they'll be persistent. There are a lot of unresolved tensions in Asia and it's hard to predict what'll come of it.

That fails completely to explain the hostile feelings between South Korea and Japan which are on par or perhaps even worse than those with China.

The real reason is that Japanese right wing nationalism wasn't completely discredited in the war like it was in Germany. After the war, the Nationalist LDP came to power. The Emperor was allowed to stay, veneration for Japanese war dead was allowed, racism against Koreans and Chinese was still acceptable, atrocities in the war by the Japanese military were not talked about or instead labelled as anti-Japanese propaganda.

By contrast, in Germany the center-left party banned and persecuted by Hitler, the SDP, came to power post-war. They and the allied occupiers stomped out almost every last vestige of Nazism and right-wing militant nationalism from public society. Tracking down war criminals, paying out reparations to victims, banning Nazi symbols and anti-semetic speech etc.

In many ways, post-WWII japan is like post-WWI Germany. Nationalism/Militarism had been defeated, yes, but not fully discredited. The difference is that Japanese democracy and economic prosperity took root, and so Japanese radicals spend their time trying to get textbooks revised rather than trying to take over the government.

[Plan C]

That fails completely to explain the hostile feelings between South Korea and Japan which are on par or perhaps even worse than those with China.

The real reason is that Japanese right wing nationalism wasn't completely discredited in the war like it was in Germany. After the war, the Nationalist LDP came to power. The Emperor was allowed to stay, veneration for Japanese war dead was allowed, racism against Koreans and Chinese was still acceptable, atrocities in the war by the Japanese military were not talked about or instead labelled as anti-Japanese propaganda.

By contrast, in Germany the center-left party banned and persecuted by Hitler, the SDP, came to power post-war. They and the allied occupiers stomped out almost every last vestige of Nazism and right-wing militant nationalism from public society. Tracking down war criminals, paying out reparations to victims, banning Nazi symbols and anti-semetic speech etc.

In many ways, post-WWII japan is like post-WWI Germany. Nationalism/Militarism had been defeated, yes, but not fully discredited. The difference is that Japanese democracy and economic prosperity took root, and so Japanese radicals spend their time trying to get textbooks revised rather than trying to take over the government.

Right-wing nationalist tendencies never really left Japan because they are uncontested and unchallenged in the public eye and never seriously have been.

The current confrontation is only making the nationalistic streak in Japan stronger and braver. Never mind Yasukuni Jinja visit, kids in Osaka now sing imperial anthem before class by decree. Yeah, that anthem, the one that most Japanese after the war used to be told to greet with stony silence and remain sitting when it was played.

you would think so wouldnt you? Its a good guess, but wrong my friend. All the movers and shakers in Unit 731, their research, videos, documents were seized by the US and A, they were pardoned by the US and A, given homes in California and were paid to continue their research as US and A citizens. Some grew rich and fat. Not really justice for the Chinese i'm afraid.

Yeah, largely. Some stayed in Japan (Green Cross... lol). Others (like Ishii Shiro) were moved to US. All were granted immunity and even deals were struck with Stalin to have them released. Either way they all fared pretty well. Kitano definitely got fat.

[conon394]

I suppose as well there is room for proxy war if say Burma collapses or something like that but a real head to head war involving China/Japan/USA seems really remote

[Farnan]

Maybe but its hard to path to a knock down drag out real hard core war. The wild card is always North Korea, they don't have economy to be worth loosing and they are nuts and so could spark off something big. Outside of that I can see tension and incidents but outside of an India/China boarder war is hard to not see just contained sea/air skirmishes on the lines of somebody makes a mistake and stuff gets used but not policy and not a general war. I mean really look at all the tension in the Korean peninsula and the provocative crap the North does and it still has not touched off a war

North Korea is not crazy they just fake insanity to get world concessions. If people think they might do anything then they'll provide aid to prevent war. In reality North Korea is a rational actor whose main concern is regime survival, and they know if they start a war they will lose.

War this, war that, there won't be a war. The JDF is capable but poses no real threat against the PLR. With the US as a Japanese ally, China will be very slow to actually come to blows with Japan. This is all sabre rattling while the swords are locked in with pins.

China's actions are focused on the internal audience. They are major trading partners and their economies would be destroyed by war. The CCP is a rational actor focused on regime survival, and they know if the economic growth stops their regime may not survive.

The simplest explanation is that the French and Germans don't get along because they learned to like each other, they got along because they were united in opposition to the Soviets. China and Japan never stopped being geopolitical rivals for a second.

Exactly. It's easy to forgive a friend but hard to forgive a rival.

I suppose as well there is room for proxy war if say Burma collapses or something like that but a real head to head war involving China/Japan/USA seems really remote

I don't see that happening. Due to the Burmese political reforms both the US and China support the government. Africa is involved in a soft power conflict but The Pacific isn't. The US won the competition to get Pacific government support, mostly because the US is geographically further than China so they fear US control less than Chinese and there are no territorial disputes.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Since China and the US are absolutely dependent on each other economically, or at least for the most part (a not the whole chunk but a big chunk), China won't do anything drastic and neither will the US, and Japan won't do anything either. If Japan is really looking for a fight, they're looking for a defensive war to go to the UN with.

[Condottiere 40K]

Burma has stuff people want, the West wants to bring it out of the cold into it's sphere of influence, and the regime wants to line it's pockets before they retire gracefully.

[Kitsunegari]

Hardly comparable, there were few atrocities against gentile French under German occupation. Anyway, the Yasukuni tradition might not be abnormal by Japanese standards, but failing to appreciate the effects on relations with neighbors and lingering trauma from the war shows poor judgement and callousness.