The motivation behind recent Chinese "Aggression"

[Farnan]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/28041377.cms

The reasoning behind the Chinese establishment of the air defense zone and their cruisers action against the US was not aimed at the US or the West. It was designed to win support for the government from the Chinese Nationalist to enable them to conduct liberal reforms which have started with the end of labor camps and reduction of the one child policy. As the article states this is the beginning of this current reform.

[Condottiere 40K]

That's one layer. But it really is about restoring China's historical borders.

[Farnan]

That's one layer. But it really is about restoring China's historical borders.

Nope, not really. Only the most ardent Nationalist really cares about some uninhabited islands, which is why the Chinese make the meaningless gestures to appease them.

[Vanoi]

Nope, not really. Only the most ardent Nationalist really cares about some uninhabited islands, which is why the Chinese make the meaningless gestures to appease them.

You forget about the large oil and gas reserves that may exist right under the island. You don't think they plays a factor in the two nations claiming the islands?

[AqD]

That's one layer. But it really is about restoring China's historical borders.

You mean that?

[Farnan]

That's Mongolian not Chinese

[AqD]

Mongolians are classified as one of Chinese peoples according to Chinese government.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Mongolians are classified as one of Chinese peoples according to Chinese government.

Mongolians are classified as a ethnic minority that is not Han. They are for all intents and purposes never considered as Han. If they were really considered to be Han, as a person with Turkic background, I could claim to be Chinese since the Salur Turks and the Uyghurs are considered Chinese as well.

[AqD]

Mongolians are classified as a ethnic minority that is not Han. They are for all intents and purposes never considered as Han. If they were really considered to be Han, as a person with Turkic background, I could claim to be Chinese since the Salur Turks and the Uyghurs are considered Chinese as well.

No, but the government also took all territory conquered by the ruling Manchu tribe, including tibet and taiwan. Thus it's quite reasonable according to them to reclaim land conquered by mongolians as well (part of mongolians were subjects of Manchu).

The islands in south actually have nothing to do with chinese in history.

[Diocle]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/28041377.cms

The reasoning behind the Chinese establishment of the air defense zone and their cruisers action against the US was not aimed at the US or the West. It was designed to win support for the government from the Chinese Nationalist to enable them to conduct liberal reforms which have started with the end of labor camps and reduction of the one child policy. As the article states this is the beginning of this current reform.

This looks like a form of wishful thinking of the worst kind ... it remids me of Neville Chamberlain and his idiotic convintions about the plans of Hitler ....

Actually what makes the situation even worse is that the Nazis were children compared to the horrid and disgusting Chinese political system and the Nazis hadn't the Bomb ....

[conon394]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/28041377.cms

The reasoning behind the Chinese establishment of the air defense zone and their cruisers action against the US was not aimed at the US or the West. It was designed to win support for the government from the Chinese Nationalist to enable them to conduct liberal reforms which have started with the end of labor camps and reduction of the one child policy. As the article states this is the beginning of this current reform.

I don't see the link ending the reeducation through labor system or at least modifying it looks to be a response to internal pressure mostly in particular.

http://www.cecc.gov/publications/iss...h-labor-system

I think rather China is being aggressive because it thinks it can and it wants to rock the boat like every rising power does. In addition the since Communism is gone nationalism makes a nice substitute when you are an running an oligarchy/police state/etc. Silly antics with US ships and calling everything you can China is just read meat for the locals (you know so they ignore poverty, low wages official corruption, pollution etc) I seriously doubt it is some cover for real reforms that people would dislike - I guess? I mean who really is against getting rid of labor camps - on the face of they are back eye and you can always detain people in nominally more normal ways.

[Farnan]

What could be scarier than a combination of nationalists, nukes and Chinese?

The agression of loosening one-child labor camps?

I was saying the aggression was a cover for reforms. If you read the last paragraph it includes what seems to be significant economic reforms.

This looks like a form of wishful thinking of the worst kind ... it remids me of Neville Chamberlain and his idiotic convintions about the plans of Hitler ....

Actually what makes the situation even worse is that the Nazis were children compared to the horrid and disgusting Chinese political system and the Nazis hadn't the Bomb ....

I think there needs to be a spin off of Godwin's law to include people comparing others to Neville Chamberlain. And saying the CCP is worse than the Nazis is plane idiotic.

I don't see the link ending the reeducation through labor system or at least modifying it looks to be a response to internal pressure mostly in particular.

http://www.cecc.gov/publications/iss...h-labor-system

I think rather China is being aggressive because it thinks it can and it wants to rock the boat like every rising power does. In addition the since Communism is gone nationalism makes a nice substitute when you are an running an oligarchy/police state/etc. Silly antics with US ships and calling everything you can China is just read meat for the locals (you know so they ignore poverty, low wages official corruption, pollution etc) I seriously doubt it is some cover for real reforms that people would dislike - I guess? I mean who really is against getting rid of labor camps - on the face of they are back eye and you can always detain people in nominally more normal ways.

I was more referring to the mention at the end of reforming the economy to move the means of production to the private sector, aka the complete end of even nominal communism. But the point, which you're saying, is that the actions of China are aimed internal and not at the West. By the way I'm not talking unpopular reforms to the majority of China, but reforms that are unpopular to the Chinese Conservatives who has power in the military.

More on the economic reforms that i am more concerned with http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/18/news.../china-reform/

[Condottiere 40K]

Communism is the current state religion; even if you don't believe in it, they do expect you to pay lip service to it.

[Farnan]

Communism is the current state religion; even if you don't believe in it, they do expect you to pay lip service to it.

Not at all. State Capitalism is the state policy, they have even publicly made statements that are extremely anti communist such as the movements of the means of production to the markets.

[Condottiere 40K]

That's fantastic; where will the Chinese Liberal Democratic, Kuomintang and the Green Parties first start campaigning for seats on the National People's Congress?

[Farnan]

That's fantastic; where will the Chinese Liberal Democratic, Kuomintang and the Green Parties first start campaigning for seats on the National People's Congress?

Capitalism doesn't equal democracy. China is still an Oligarchy.

Don't let the CCPs name confuse you, they believe in State Capitalism.

[Diocle]

Capitalism doesn't equal democracy. China is still an Oligarchy.

Don't let the CCPs name confuse you, they believe in State Capitalism.

State Capitalism is the common definition for the National Communist Regime in China, thinking that this regime will be able to reform itself is a naive and IMO criminal way to read what is happening in that unfortunate land.

[Adar]

I've split the thread into two segments.

Anyone who wish to debate the merits of murderous regimes can do it in the following thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...4#post13518494

[Aanker]

Doesn't really matter what the Chinese government really wants, secretly or not: in the diplomacy of air defense zones, what matters are your actions, because you are moving military gear around your neighbours. They can't perfectly estimate your intentions when you fly jets off their coasts, so naturally, they field jets of their own, just in case.

[Diocle]

Doesn't really matter what the Chinese government really wants, secretly or not: in the diplomacy of air defense zones, what matters are your actions, because you are moving military gear around your neighbours. They can't perfectly estimate your intentions when you fly jets off their coasts, so naturally, they field jets of their own, just in case.

Yes but sorry, if the state and the goverment is Democratic, you firstly send a diplomatic note asking what's happening, then eventually you deploy the jets.

In this case it's the intrinsic nature of the Chinese Regime that creates the case. I mean that the protectors of North Korea, cannot be considered a 'normal' country. This is the reason why I think it's impossible reading the crap about the supposed Chinese Reforms without talking about the political regime ruling China.

If the USA move planes on the border of Canada, nobody would suspect an incoming attack, if even Vladimir Putin moves his fleet near the Syrian coast during an international crisis, the Americans don't think he starting an attack against them, the 'normal' countries use the 'normal' diplomatic channels between civilized countries, before moving the jets, but with China the matter is very different, yes, because actually China is a slaughterhouse led by a regime of criminals and mass-murderers.