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Thread: Historical research

  1. #41

    Default Re: Historical research

    Stincky, were you talking about the banner armies of the Qing dynasty? If not, could I please have the sources detailing the Mongol banner armies as I would like to read up on them. I am not very well versed in Mongol history, so maybe I'm just spewing out nonsense, but it seems like you're pretty well versed in Mongol history. If you were talking about the Qing banner armies, I would agree with Broreale, since this mod mostly focuses on the Imjin War, 1592-1598. I do like the break down of the Mongol tribes and Tumens though, I was looking around for some sort of source that would go into further detail, but it was quite difficult to find one on my end.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Historical research

    Quote Originally Posted by Broreale View Post
    Since the banners didn't come about until after the Imjin War, would it be better to save banner units as professional mid-high tier late-game units? Clan- or tribe-based military seemed to be the thing prior to Nurhaci, with the recruits largely adhering to how their people lived and fought, i.e. since only some tribes were nomadic the rest would still largely field infantry from the poorer classes.
    banners in my posts are only for geographical location...not as units mid tier etc for instance there's today 3 horqin (khorchin) banners...but for our purposes they can have a larger territory in that general vicininty...... i.e. theyre all nomadic...just as in u.s. some indians lived closer to the outposts for trade.

    mongols and kalmyks proper history from 9th century breaks them all down...and if they did so there must be some relevance to them which is why i included them in post. Tibet also has a smattering of mongols trying to enact the patron saint relationship Khubilai had generations earlier. Anda, Khutughthai, Abtai Sain Khan, Ubashi Shului...theyre all down there carving out areas of influence among the tibetans...Anda dies 1582-1583 so at the start of our campaign...think to break up Ordos and Tumeds into at least 3 different clans...friendly with each other but not necessarily a vassal to the Ordos and certainly not to the Great Yuan...its exactly the same...not their leader...but Anda asks and receives Sutu Khan from Tumen Jasagt or his father Gudeng Khan....after Anda had previously chased Gudeng's father eastward...so not exactly a vassal to the Yuan as some might believe.

    When you see the provinces in Inner mongolia (the frontier as you would have it) they have plain white and bordered white banner...incorporated later when Ligden Khan lost and capitulated to the Manchus, since the Chahar had 8 tumens those 8 provinces should be where The Chahar can be...just another ex.
    Last edited by Stincky; March 11, 2015 at 10:20 AM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Historical research

    Extra Credits is now doing videos about th Imjin War. It should help a bit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ieaDfD_h6s

  4. #44

    Default Re: Historical research

    Hi Uanime5,
    Something I've been wondering about: Why is Toyotomi Hideyoshi referred to as Hashiba Maruko? I understand that his clan name was Hashiba prior to his ascension to kanpaku status, but as far as I know his personal name was still Hideyoshi at the time that the game begins. Also, I've noticed that if the player continues after being declared shogun, their clan name in the diplomacy screen changes from "[Clan Name]" to "[Clan Name] Shogunate". Would it be possible to mod this system to shift the Hashiba name to Toyotomi Regency once the faction asserts control of Japan?
    Thanks so much for your dedication to this fantastic mod. By the way, I love your avatar as I'm a Berserk fan myself.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Historical research

    Quote Originally Posted by blurqe View Post
    Something I've been wondering about: Why is Toyotomi Hideyoshi referred to as Hashiba Maruko? I understand that his clan name was Hashiba prior to his ascension to kanpaku status, but as far as I know his personal name was still Hideyoshi at the time that the game begins.
    I assigned the wrong name group to this faction, so many names don't display correctly. I'm currently trying to fix this.

    Also, I've noticed that if the player continues after being declared shogun, their clan name in the diplomacy screen changes from "[Clan Name]" to "[Clan Name] Shogunate". Would it be possible to mod this system to shift the Hashiba name to Toyotomi Regency once the faction asserts control of Japan?
    That's entirely possible.
    Morning Sun (adds Korea and China to the Shogun 2 map)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...28-Morning-Sun

    Expanded Japan mod (97 new regions and 101 new factions)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ew-factions%29

    How to split a region in TWS2
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...split-a-region

    Eras Total Conquest 2.3 (12 campaigns from 970-1547)

  6. #46

    Default Re: Historical research

    In terms of Jurchen armies, the four (later Eight, de facto 24) banners were made up of men who were available to the Khan as warriors in exchange for land to farm, but Jurchen/Manchu Bannermen were only a small minority in the army that conquered China; after the conquest of Liaodong peninsula, Han Chinese swelled into the Eight Banners, and wielded muskets, spears, and cannons, while the Manchu tended to stick to nomadic cavalry. Some 75% of the Eight Banners were Han during the Qing Conquest, and the Qing's infantry forces were further expanded with the widespread defection of Chinese generals and their armies to the Qing after the fall of the Ming, forming the core of the Green Standard Army. The actual percentage of Manchu troops in the Qing army during the conquest was almost certainly less than 10%.

    The question is of course how to integrate this military structure into the game; my recommendation would be to find whatever way you can to discourage building larger fortresses in Manchuria by keeping the food margin slim. Keep the troops one can train support low, and force the Jurchen to look south for the bulk of their army.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Historical research

    Some details concerning differences between Japan, Korea, and China at the beginning of the Imjin War, re-posted from the bugs/suggestions thread:
    Unless I also reduce Japan to 20-30 regions Japan would be able to field armies 2-3 times larger than either Korea or China.
    This would be somewhat historically accurate for the time period due to the rampant mismanagement and discrimination against the military in Korea and China at the time.


    Hideyoshi's invading army comprised 158,800 fighting men, with a further 76,200 men staying to guard Kyushu and another 100,000 distributed throughout the remainder of the islands as guards and peacekeepers (national army totaling 335,000). Furthermore, numerous daimyo from Shikoku and Honshu (most notably Tokugawa Ieyasu) were not required to contribute a large portion of their available forces to the national military, due to the expense of moving these soldiers and Hideyoshi's desire to maintain goodwill with his retainers. Factoring this in, one might estimate that if all of the military strength of Japan in 1592 were amassed, the army would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 400,000 soldiers.


    This was without question the largest (and best trained) fighting force in the world at the time. The only potential rival was the Ming dynasty. In 1592, Ming garrisons could bring forth an approximate maximum of 100,000 (poorly trained and ill-disciplined) men to bear arms against their foes. Joseon, suffering from similar administrative woes as Ming, had an even smaller available force. For the sake of comparison, the largest national armies in Europe at the time were rarely greater than 50,000-strong. It would not be an exaggeration to say that the entire weight of responsibility for Hideyoshi's failure in the Imjin War falls upon his significantly inferior naval force.

    If you'd rather not shrink Ming and Joseon in terms of territory, my suggestion would be to significantly increase recruitment and upkeep costs for their units (upkeep particularly). This is because the major cause of their inferior military strength was corruption among the officers who would sell exemptions from service, take bribes to allow soldiers to flee the garrison, etc. The situation was quite a mess, and I think the best way to reflect that in-game would be through exorbitant upkeep costs.

    One other history-unfriendly detail I've noticed is that Ming starts out with a very high bonus to military research (259%), which I'm assuming is due to their large number of castles. by contrast, their civil research bonus is just 30%. As the military arts had been largely forgotten and left behind in the twilight of the Ming dynasty, while civil pursuits were the sole focus of the imperial bureaucracy, it seems unfitting that they should be able to research military advancements so much faster than the Japanese factions, who were rapidly modernizing in order to make gains in the sengoku jidai. You may want to nerf that bonus for the Ming. I'd assume a similar situation is going on with the Joseon, so that would be applied to them as well.


    If you've read through my lengthy post and not been offended, I appreciate that, as I don't mean this as unkind criticism. I love this mod, and I'd like to see it as historically accurate as possible.

  8. #48
    Laetus
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Republic of Korea (South, just in case.)
    Posts
    13

    Default Re: Historical research

    삼혈포(Samhyul-po) calvary
    Joseon cavalry with three barrel pole guns.
    http://pds19.egloos.com/pds/201008/0...81a84351a7.jpg

    쌍검(Tsang-gum) cavalry
    wields dual sword.
    http://pds18.egloos.com/pds/201008/0...81a52767d8.jpg

    팽배수(Paengbae-soo)
    Heavy shield and sword unit.
    It should be somewhere between ashigaru and samurai.
    http://pds19.egloos.com/pds/201008/0...819f4ba051.jpg

    쌍검병(Tsang-gum byung)
    Dual sword infantry
    http://thumbnail.egloos.net/600x0/ht...7730ad1b3d.jpg
    Reenactors reenacting 쌍검병
    https://youtu.be/g3jGgFTElBY
    They do look bada$$, but I worry that there might be animation problems with 'em.

    regular archer
    Salsoo(regular spearman) Deungpaesoo(regular sword and shield infantry)
    Deungpaesoo is paengbaesoo with lighter shiled.
    Giving them lower armor and higher melee defense will be accurate.
    http://dcimg1.dcinside.com/viewimage...920c872f5682c8

    paddler/hand cannoneer/regular archer/salsoo/paengbae-soo/kabsa
    low-rank officer/mid-rank officer/high-rank officer
    http://image.dcinside.com/viewimageP...e81a2ce79b0440

  9. #49

    Default Re: Historical research

    Heres an interesting documentary on Chinese ships sort-of in the timeline https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX1OZKKfHGg

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