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Thread: Historical research

  1. #21

    Default Re: Historical research

    Quote Originally Posted by uanime5 View Post
    I have some questions about Ming units.

    I've noticed that the robe/jacket's opening is always shown as starting over the right shoulder, going across the chest, then ending under the left arm. Is there a reason for this?
    While I'm no expert on Hanfu I believed the ancient Chinese thought that being left handed was what barbarians wore,ie nomads folded it the opposite way from left to right though some Tang dynasty Hanfu is adopted from foreign influences such as the Xianbei.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by uanime5 View Post
    Would it be a inaccurate if a unit had their robe's opening starting over the left shoulder, going across the chest, then ending under the right arm?
    Yes it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by uanime5 View Post
    Also do you know what this unit is? It seems to be a palace units but I'm not sure whether they were a palace guard or a soldier that fought on the battlefield.
    From its description its the Emperors personal messenger.

    The real imperial bodyguards/secret police would be the Jinyiwei

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    Ever since the Hongwu emperor imperial uniforms were required to have a mandarin square would be 1 chi(32 centimeters) tall ,3 cun(10 cm) wide.
    Ren(benevolence 仁) was used by the Emperor,dragon and clouds
    Yi(justice 義) was used by Dukes,Marquis,Earls and governors,tiger and flowers
    Li(propriety 禮 ) was used by generals,panthers and flowers
    Zhi(wisdom 智) was used by commanders of a thousand men,lions and flowers
    Xin(trust信) was used by commanders of a hundred men,clouds

    From 明代軍服述論

  2. #22

    Default Re: Historical research

    Okay thanks for the information. Wu Guo do you know where I can download all of the Ming clothes images you keep using. They'll be helpful when I try to make units.
    Morning Sun (adds Korea and China to the Shogun 2 map)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...28-Morning-Sun

    Expanded Japan mod (97 new regions and 101 new factions)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ew-factions%29

    How to split a region in TWS2
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...split-a-region

    Eras Total Conquest 2.3 (12 campaigns from 970-1547)

  3. #23

    Default Re: Historical research

    Quote Originally Posted by uanime5 View Post
    Okay thanks for the information. Wu Guo do you know where I can download all of the Ming clothes images you keep using. They'll be helpful when I try to make units.
    I think they are all over the internet here's a couple of links.
    http://dm.uuu9.com/%E5%A4%A7%E6%98%8...6%A0/index.htm
    http://www.pinterest.com/verseauwu/t...1%A3%E5%86%A0/

  4. #24

  5. #25

    Default Re: Historical research

    Being the military history nerd I am, I will try and summarize the things about the Ming military I know. Most of the information will come from Chinese material, namely the Ming military manual Wubei Zhi and other historic accounts. I am not citing these sources since I am not feeling terribly pedantic...


    Overview

    The Imjin War happened during one of the two periods when Ming military were at its best. In that aspect the Japanese were terribly out of luck. The Ming army were a mix of professional and levied soldiers. Because of the Tuntian, meaning that soldiers lay down arms and farm the land in times of peace, the vast majority of "troops" listed were in fact life time farmers, except for when in times of constant warfare. Before the Imjin war, the Ming dynasty was constantly harassed by Mongolians in the north and Japanese pirates in the south. During this period of relative turmoil, a great reformer and general, Qi Jiguang, emerged to turn the tide and led Ming to victory on both fronts. In the south, he assembled the "Qi's family army", bypassing the ineffective levy system and creating a professional army. These troops were native of the south and defended their home bravely against the Japanese under Qi's command. Their secret weapon, aside from strict discipline, rigorous training and good morale, was their battle formation specifically engineered towards Japanese weaponry. Qi observed that for his soldiers to match the martial prowess of their Japanese counter part in a short time was not really feasible, so he developed what would later be known as the Yuanyang Form, illustrated as follows:
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg[/IMG]
    The Shield bearers would draw enemy fire and fend off arrows and enemy spears, the Langxian ( pikes with defensive spikes all around it) troops on the flank would keep flanking enemies at bay, allowing for the pole arm soldiers to close up and fend then off. The spear men, as you can imagine, would look for openings and kill as many enemies as they could. The form was also complemented by a musketeer, who would provide supporting fire and pick off important targets.

    The Yuanyang Form also came with a few variations that were more suited for street warfare and narrow passes. It was pretty much the premium squad level organization at its time and completely outperformed Japanese forms, evident in Qi’s victory in the south and expulsion of pirates from the Chinese Shore.
    Qi’s second legacy was the famous Great Wall of China. Although the war existed before Qi’s time, Qi connected the previous fortifications, modified their design and turned them into the Great Wall people see nowadays. On the northern front, the primary enemies of the Ming were the Mongolians and Jurchen tribes, who excelled at using cavalry.
    The previous Ming tactics for countering cavalry was that of Emperor Yongle’s. Emperor Yongle saw Ming’s first military superiority, built from years of civil war and conflicts. Yongle relied on his “capital three main battalions” of elite troops, who were stationed in Beijing as the pivot of the entire northern front (similar troops can be found in the south, but they saw way less combat). They consisted of the “divine machines battalion”, which was what firearms were called at that time. These troops were masters at using cannons, handguns and fire arrows, and delivered a terrible blow against any foe. The Ming manual even recorded the earliest use of Fire by Ranks tactics in the Ming army stationed in the south. However, the soldiers of the firearms battalions seldom used it, since they were up against the highly mobile Mongolian cavalry, and sustained fire was somewhat less important without fortifications. Their job, then, was to deliver maximum death, chaos and confusion to the charging Mongolians and then retreat behind the infantry lines without firing a second shot. Then, the cavalry from the other two battalions, the “three thousand battalion”, a collection of Mongolian mercenary, who were among the finest cavalry in the world, and the “five army battalion”, the equivalence of guard troops consisting of the best infantrymen, cavalry and archers of the Ming, would break off the formation and counter charge at the flank of advancing enemies, while the infantry gathered to deliver one deadly blow through the center. Yongle smashed the remaining Mongolian dynasty into pieces with this tactic and chased them all the way to Siberia (literally); he even defeated and killed the Mongolian Khan, a direct descendant of Genghis Khan, at Onon River, right where Genghis Khan united the Mongolian tribes and set out to conquer the world. However, the Mongolians were to get their sweet avenge for this monumental humiliation soon.
    After Yongle died, the aggressive campaigns he started to contain the Mongolians fell apart, and the Mongolians got back on their feet, invading Ming in 1449. The Ming emperor at that time took the elite Ming forces and some other troops totaling 200 thousand in retaliation, but was trapped and decisively routed in Tumu Castle outside of the capital. The three main battalions were decimated, tens of thousands died, among which 66 were high ranking officials and officers. The emperor himself was captured alive. Thus the Ming army was completely crippled in front of their capital, leaving it vulnerable to attacks.
    But lucky for Ming, one figure stepped up to save Ming from destruction. Yu Qian, a scholar- official, voluntarily took on the position of minister of war (who, obviously died previously in battle), and organized Beijing’s defense. He purportedly marched the remaining army and some reinforcements out of the city gate and locked the gate in place, telling his soldiers to win or die for the empire. He also reformed one of the three battalions, the firearms battalion from re-collected weapons and second-line troops; these soldiers staged a deadly ambush against the Mongolian cavalry in a town outside the walls, routing them and revenged their fallen predecessors. Overall, the defense was tremendously successful, with the Mongolians decisively defeated and expelled for good.
    Back to Qi’s story, with Ming’s elite cavalry force decisively wiped out a century ago, Qi was left with nothing but his infantry and one kill move --- the firearms of Ming. He therefore decided to build the Great Wall, incorporating cannons, muskets and heavy fortifications to fend off the Mongolians. In a nutshell, he achieved it. He also invented the some of the most fearsome weapons the Ming had. He thought along the same line of his predecessors, attempting to deliver maximum amount of damage and chaos with firearms and then fight it out conventionally. His solution was having multiple barrels on his fire arms. In combat his soldier would rotate and fire 3 to 7 shots, depending on the type of weapon he was using, and then switch to melee. He also saw that infantry could easily be outflanked and outmaneuvered by cavalry, so the idea of a “tank” was born. The Ming troops would use portable fortifications, namely armored carts with cannons, guns and possibly flamethrowers mounted on top, and advance steadily without the danger of being flanked.
    Another general at this time, Li Chengliang, employed a radically different but equally effective solution to secure Qi’s flanks. He assembled an elite cavalry force by making his soldiers landed lords (questionable under Ming’s law, but overlooked for his military success), and formed what would later be known as “Liaodong Iron Horsemen”. These troops reminded the Mongolians and later Jurchen cavalrymen of the feeling of being smashed and chased by Ming cavalry. Unlike the cavalry at the time of Yongle, the Iron Horsemen were essentially dragoons. Their weapon was the famed three-barrel pole gun, small enough to be fired on horseback and could fire consecutively for three times. The weapon, in accordance with Ming weapons design principles, could also function as a mace with its unique shape and length. These guys would function very much like the revolver cavalry we see in later times, raining bullets on the enemy and then quickly withdraw, or charge into the confused foe and crack heads with their guns still hot.
    Since the Imjin war happened almost immediately after the aforementioned Ming military reform was complete, the Japanese would have to face an experienced Ming forces with terrifying weapons technology and tactics. I will try to zoom in more on the specifics in other sections.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Historical research

    The Imjin War itself
    The Ming sent a small band of cavalry into Korea before the actual interference took place. The band led by Zu Chengxun was slaughtered in a brutal ambush by the Japanese. Disgraced but survived, Zu informed the imperial court of the news. Consequently, the main expeditionary force sent into Korea consisted of 70 to 100 thousand men, depending on various sources, and was made up of probably the best forces Ming could muster and led by its most illustrious general, battle hardened Li Rusong, son of Li Chengliang and commander of the Liaodong Iron Horsemen. The recorded composition of the expedition force:
    1. The Liaodong Horsemen, led by Li and his brothers.
    2. Qi’s family army, who were experienced in fighting Japanese troops
    3. The Northern Army, possibly garrison forces from along the capital line
    4. The Southern Army.
    5. The firearms battalion of various armies.
    It is worth noting that in the Ming army, crossbows were almost never used. Archers were also only limitedly used. The Ming relied almost exclusively on cannons, handguns and muskets.

    In the expedition force, handheld guns were not used so often, as the terrain in Korea was too mountainous for them to be effective. Li favored cannon fire in siege battles and cavalry charges when fighting in the field. The Imjin War saw the first use of Ming’s revolutionary 百出佛朗机(Baichu Folangji), meaning “Hundred Shot Portuguese Machine”. The weapon was adopted from a sea battle with Portuguese merchant ships earlier. The Ming naval commander managed to salvage one cannon from a sunken Portuguese ship, and found it superior to Ming cannons. Ming engineers quickly reverse engineered the technology and produced their own, although the result was pretty much complete alien to its Portuguese creators. The Folangji fired shots similar to grape shots used in later Europe, and possibly small explosive shells as well. It was almost exclusively an anti-personnel weapon. Folangji was remarkably small and portable, operated by a crew of two; one model could even be operated by a single person on horseback. The weapon was first set up on the ground, and loaded from the breech with a preloaded barrel section, much like the one displayed in the Shogun 2 game, the difference being that the Ming troops always preload multiple “son barrels” before battle, so they could fire, pull the son barrel out and push in another one into the “mother barrel”, and fire again. This allowed them to fire at almost the same speed as modern artillery. The expedition force typically had ten preloaded barrels for each cannon, hence the name “hundred shots”. The weapon proved pivotal in the siege of Pyongyang, wounding the Japanese commander and countless others in its devastating barrage.

    Another form of artillery was the “Grand General Cannon”, a heavy, unreliable but devastating bombard. It was transported by horse (for the record, this was the first time anybody had done so) into Korea by Li’s order, and purportedly blasted open Pyongyang’s gate in one shot.

    After losing vast territories to the Ming and Joseon forces, Hideyoshi had a brief diplomatic encounter with the Ming. Since officially, Japan was China’s vassal, the imperial court did what was customary of such encounters, an imperial decree appointing Hideyoshi as “King of Japan” and befitting papers, official seal and uniform were sent to Japan. Hideyoshi apparently misunderstood the appointment, believing that he was to get half of Korea and a Chinese princess, and accepted the duty. (So, ironically, Hideyoshi was the King of Japan and a recognized Ming official with imperial authority…) Obviously when he later found out about the truth he was furious and decided to invade again.

    This time, Ming response was notably weaker. Some 40thousand reinforcement was scrambled to relieve the Ming garrison and Joseon forces in Korea. It was historically interesting, since many figures who would determine Ming’s fate in its later struggle with Jurchen Qing dynasty first made it to the history books here, and, fun fact, the first Qing emperor, then Jurchen clan leader Nurhaci rallied some 50 thousand troops and volunteered to fight with Ming and Joseon against the Japanese, as Joseon was their valued trade partner. His request was denied by the Ming authority, who thought they could easily crush the Japanese troops. But anyway, the second conflict were nowhere near the first one, with not so many great generals and great battles. But one thing good about it is that Ming’s tank army, the “cart troops”, saw action under general Liu Ting, who was know as “Liu the great blade” as he wielded a 60 kg heavy Dao in battle and could “spin it like flying” in battle according to historic accounts. So we get to see the most badass Ming troops in Imjin War after all.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Historical research

    List of weapons in use in Wubei Zhi
    This might serve as a reference for troop design. My personal advice is that the type of firearms of Ming be modified to keep in accordance with history. It should not be too hard to achieve, as the principle of these weapons are almost identical with revolvers, devastating volleys, repeated fire, and super slow to reload afterwards. I do think the current representation of melee weapons were generally accurate, so I’ll omit this part.
    About Ming’s navy presence. I don’t believe Ming’s navy played a significant part in Imjin War. But, Ming’s navy was much more impressive than people realize. Most people heard of Ming’s treasure fleet and Zheng He’s grand voyage to India and Africa (maybe even America?). Few realized that although Ming never saw similar operations, the technology was fused seamlessly into the imperial navy. Under Qi Jiguang (yeah, this guy again), the navy did battle the Japanese pirates on sea. Later Koxinga, with Ming already fallen, assembled the remnants of the navy and still managed to capture Taiwan and defeated the Dutch navy. The technology used by the army, like Folangji, was also used by the navy. The navy also deployed mines, flame throwers and even anti-ship missiles (well, a self-propelling rocket loaded with explosives). I could not get the full Wubei Zhi and read its naval section, but the book itself was written by a naval officer, so the accounts should be pretty accurate.
    The following may look absurd. But they were actually used in combat.

    1. Fire Arrows



    Gunpowder strapped to ordinary arrows. You see why Ming military didn’t really like bows or crossbows. Why fire one at a time (yes, even with repeating crossbows you are doing that). When you can have a squad of soldiers, firing hundreds of arrows from containers at the same time?

    2. Three-barrel pole guns
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image004.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image006.jpg[/IMG]

    The revolver of its time, the three-barrel pole gun became the standard side arm for Ming soldiers alongside the Dao in the 16th century, and saw active use in both infantry and cavalry. It is absolutely versatile. Up to three bullets can be loaded into a single barrel in order to compensate for its lack of accuracy. In combat, the pole gun can be wielded also as a mace. It is worth noting that this weapon lack effectiveness beyond 50 meters, but could cover Ming musketeers in a meaningful way. As the enemy closed, the pole gunners can move forward and deliver a terrifying suppression fire, usually enough to dissuade any enemy to do stupid things. The three barrels can be ignited simultaneously for maximum fire superiority.

    This weapon saw active use in the Imjin war, favored by the northern troops in close battle. By accounts from Japanese novelized history book Tokugawa Ieyasu, this thing scared the hell out of Japanese troops as a melee weapon. The book also mentioned a bayonet attached to it, although I did not actually find any supporting evidence of such usage.





    3. Folangji, or rapid firing cannons
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image008.jpg[/IMG]

    This cannon here was based on captured Portuguese Falcon cannon, with a breech loading mechanism added. Pre-loaded “son barrel” can be tossed into the slot seen above and fired straight away. It fires grape shots and explosive rounds, which, combined with its astounding fire rate, made it a terrifying infantry killer. The weapon saw extensive use in the Imjin War. It’s shortcoming is that due to technological restriction, the firing process was not air-tight because of gaps between the two barrels, restricting its range to a few hundred meters at best。

    4. Musket

    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image010.jpg[/IMG]
    Ming muskets were used primarily by southern troops. It was, in fact based on Japanese Musket. This is just your standard musket. Ming troops would stand in formation and fire volley by ranks at the enemy. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image011.jpg[/IMG]

    5. The Tiger Cannon (mortars)
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image012.jpg[/IMG]
    This light mortar was not very accurate or powerful, but it’s cheap and easy to use. It was a vital component in Qi Jiguang’s army.








    6. “The five thunder machine”
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image014.jpg[/IMG]

    This is also Qi’s creation. Operated by a group of 2. It is basically a musket with 5 barrels attached to it.

    7. “The swift thunder gun”
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image016.jpg[/IMG]
    Some more advanced version with even more barrels and a shield attached to it. Invented by Ming gunpowder expert Zhao Shizhen.

    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image018.jpg[/IMG]
    This guy was a genius. He also developed some unbelievable things. We do not know whether or not they saw action, however. The picture above was the common fire arms used by the Ming. The first one was a single shot hand gun used in the 15th century. The second one is slightly more interesting since it came with a bayonet. The third is the three-barrel pole gun. The fourth is just the musket. The fifth is truly a terrifying weapon invented by Zhao, “the lightning gun”, a musket that can be breech-loaded. Let’s just assume it never saw combat… this research is tearing my knowledge of gunpowder weaponry apart.

    8. “The fire dragon” (missile)
    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image020.jpg[/IMG]
    I was blown away when I first saw it. This weapon was fired from ships, propelled by four smaller rockets and a main rocket to its back. Some accounts suggest that the smaller rockets could detach itself when burned out. The weapon was loaded with explosives and a batch of fire arrows. If the weapon hits an enemy ship, it would explode and create a mess, especially considering that it would set wood on fire. If it missed the target, the fire arrows would be ignited when it ran out of fuel, probably taking out a few unlucky guys with it. I doubt this thing would be truly accurate in combat, but surely a dragon like thing flying at you on water, spitting out flame would terrify most sailors.

    9. “battle carts”

    Another mind-blowing fact. The “cart battalions” of Ming started with a legendary figure Yu Dayou, who was a master duelist and an army officer. Legend suggests that he came up with the idea of using carts as mobile cover, and built a hundred of these carts. He was raided by 10 thousand Mongolian cavalry when doing so, and managed to repel the attack with only 3 thousand using his carts. This achievement was noted by Qi Jiguang, who incorporated the idea into his reformed army. The carts were mounted with two rapid firing cannons and fire arrows for fire power. It is believed that the carts were used to form a defensive square against cavalry, since it could, coupled with pikes, prevent cavalry from charging, enabling musketeers to fire without being run down, and even provide devastating artillery fire. This force was sent into Korea during the second conflict.

    [IMG]file:///C:\Users\Tianyu\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image021.jpg[/IMG]

  8. #28

    Default Re: Historical research

    I just realized that in my hastiness I did not upload images correctly. So, here they are.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Ming soldier with Dao sword and three-barrel pole gun
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    A typical Ming musket
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    Folangji, Ming's portable rapid-firing cannon
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    Ming soldiers in a firing line with muskets
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    A list of weapons widely used by Ming.
    The handgun
    pole gun w/ bayonet
    three-barrel pole gun
    musket
    rapid-firing musket by Zhao Shizhen

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The five thunder machine by Qi Jiguang
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    The nest of bees, deadly fire arrows.
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    Ming mortars, used in Qi Jiguang's army
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    Qi's Yuanyang form
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    An actual three-barrel pole gun unearthed.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Historical research

    Click image for larger version. 

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    A Ming battle cart, with Folangji and fire arrows mounter
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    A likely formation of the Ming cart army. This form slaughtered Mongolian cavalry.
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    The Fire Dragon, ancestor of anti-ship missiles
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    And our Mongol Hunter, Emperor Yongle.
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    This is the thing Zhao Shizhen designed. Looks like a Gatling with a shield attached to it. It likely never saw major use in combat though.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Historical research

    Any additional research needed? I have access to university databases so I can probably find sources pretty easily. I can try to get you some more information if needed. Particularly Ming or Japanese research?

  11. #31

    Default Re: Historical research

    I think I'm okay for Ming and Japanese research. Do you have anything on Tibet, the Mongols, or the Jurchen?
    Morning Sun (adds Korea and China to the Shogun 2 map)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...28-Morning-Sun

    Expanded Japan mod (97 new regions and 101 new factions)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ew-factions%29

    How to split a region in TWS2
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...split-a-region

    Eras Total Conquest 2.3 (12 campaigns from 970-1547)

  12. #32

    Default Re: Historical research

    I don't have anything on Tibet, Mongols, or Jurchens. I could try to look for stuff, but I'm not sure if anything substantial will come up. Those seem to be more difficult to get a hold of. What kind of information do you need on them?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Historical research

    I would need information regarding the composition of their armies (what types of soldiers they fought the Ming and Joseon with) and what resources they had access to (what they used to trade with the Ming and Joseon).
    Morning Sun (adds Korea and China to the Shogun 2 map)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...28-Morning-Sun

    Expanded Japan mod (97 new regions and 101 new factions)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ew-factions%29

    How to split a region in TWS2
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...split-a-region

    Eras Total Conquest 2.3 (12 campaigns from 970-1547)

  14. #34

    Default Re: Historical research

    I'll see what I can do, but there's no guarantee. I'll post if I find anything.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Historical research

    Good news, I have found quite a bit of sources, a lot deal with the Mongols, some deal with Tibet and the Jurchens, I'll try to find more sources on them. For now I'll sift through the sources I have and get you information on army composition and trade with Ming China and Joseon Korea.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Historical research

    Quote Originally Posted by eXplizD View Post
    Good news, I have found quite a bit of sources, a lot deal with the Mongols, some deal with Tibet and the Jurchens, I'll try to find more sources on them. For now I'll sift through the sources I have and get you information on army composition and trade with Ming China and Joseon Korea.
    How about numbers as far as lets say Chahar Tumen proper and its dependants... Im just taking banner's 8 Chahar banners so that total number of troops or tribal members per se and Khotshids, Sunids, Wesumutshins, Aokhans and Naimans... those are all proper vassals and its head the Great Yuan / Chahar.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Historical research

    Adhering to the recognized usage of the steppes the Mongol
    army was divided territorially into three main forces, the army of
    the Left wing or east (jun-qar), the army of the Eight wing or west
    (bara'un-qar), and the army of the Imperial Ordu or centre (qol).
    The organization of these was on a decimal basis, the strongest
    unit being the Tumen or 10,000, which could itself constitute an
    army corps. Each such Tmmen was divided into ten regiments of
    1,000 (minggan), each regiment into ten squadrons of 100 (jaghun),
    and each squadron into ten troops of 10 (arban). The individual
    clans and tribes of the empire were grouped or divided so that units
    of 1,000 to 10,000 men could be mustered at the shortest notice.

    The Mongol Army
    H. Desmond Martin
    The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland
    No. 1 (Apr., 1943) , pp. 46-85
    Published by: Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland



    Batmunkh Dayan Khaan reorganized the Eastern Mongols into 6 tümens (literally "ten thousand") as follows.

    • Left Wing:

      • Khalkha tumen: Northern 7 otog: (Jalaid, Besud, Eljigin, Gorlos, Khökhüid (Khukhuid), Khataghin, and later addedUriankhai). Southern 5 otog: (Baarin, Jaruud, Bayagud, Ujeed (Uchirad) and Hongirad)

      • Chahar tumen: Abaga, Abaganar, Aokhan, Daurs, Durved, Hishigten, Muumyangan, Naiman, Onnigud, Huuchid,Sunud, Uzemchin, and Urad[29]

      • Uriankhai tumen. This tumen was later dissolved.


    • Right Wing:

      • Ordos tumen:

      • Tümed tümen:

      • Yünsheebüü (Yöngshiyebü) tümen: (including Asud and Kharchin)


    • Four tümen Oirats:

      • Choros, Olots, Durvud, Khoid, Baatud, Torghut, Khoshut, Ur (Ör) Mongol, Barga Mongols and Buryats. The Barga and Buryats later became subject of Khalkha.


    From Wikipedia^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Im...2.80.931600.29

    Is all you need the numbers and is this sufficient? i couldn't find specifics of each tribe. But from the numbers that I got from wikipedia (yes, sorry, couldn't find sources that detailed the army size of the northern yuan, all of the sources I found detailed the army size of Ghengis Khan) but from this it could be speculated that since a Tumen constituted 10,000 men, this would constitute 60,000 or (depending whether the Four Oirat alliance meant 4 tumens) could be 100,000. These numbers don't seem too outlandish in any way as Mongol armies were never that big to begin with. Sources say that the peak army during Ghengis Khan's time is approx. 120,000 of Mongols, much higher if you account for troops that were brought into the empire from conquered lands. But in this time during the Imjin war, the Mongols were confined to the Northern Yuan. Thus 60-100,000 sounds about right.

    I hope this was of help and if you need more detail or information let me know, I still have many sources to sift through so no issues if you need more.


  18. #38

    Default Re: Historical research

    I actually was thinking to break them down even further and come up with some kind of banner = this so if one tribe had 3 banners....it should be a bigger place...i do know that mongols for instance met in Jirem and made the league which 4-5 tribes of mongols then lived in that area. We will have to break them down because its not a fluid frontier rather its a tribe holding on to said province and his allies...a little different theory than what mongols had but this is the best we can do. Now i dont necessarily say break up mongol provinces the size of japan's because then jurchen provinces look like countries and they're alot more similar with each other than ming per se, so provinces WOULD TRY to be of like size until you look at the area in question....then provinces would have to be a little smaller to accomodate.


    Halka tumens i would think maybe 2 of their 4 khans (yes ill include Sain Noyan even though he didnt actually have a khanship til later)


    Most of the Chahar / Great Yuan some of their territory near Hulunbuir is cut off map but they will be major players- Abagas, Abaganars, Aokhans, Derbets, Kesikten, Momminggan, Naiman, Ongnighods, Sunids, Wesumutshins and Urads.... Huuchid is something else (that i know it by) included as well.


    Dayan Khan disperses the Uriankhai after they kill his oldest son who they had begged to become their jinong (viceroy 2nd in command).


    Ordos tumen - Gun Bilik Mergen's son Noyandara b.1522 is the overlord of the ordos and tumeds and also the jinong over the whole mongol empire.


    Tumed tumen - Altan Khan Anda is Gun Bilik's next brother...de facto leader of the ordos after his brother dies in 1542? Khutukthai Setzen Khungtaidshi is de facto leader after Anda as well as being Gun Bilik's and Anda's Nephew, who's father Nom Tarni took the Bassod Uishins as his inheritence.


    Dont know how many or if any of the Oirats would be in our area. They were going back n forth but may be too northerly for our concerns. Barga and Buryats is way up the Amur river. Khoits werent big time yet...more subtribe at the time...1700's Amursana brings them to prominence. Choros have to do with Tibet so they maybe, Olots (Dzungars) not especially to my knowledge at the time. Durvud (Dorbets?) unsure, Baatud probably not, Torghuts and Khoshotes maybe and dont know of the Ur mongols.


    I can post the actual tribes with how many banners and then one can do a population guess-timation (rather seeing how big we make these provinces) afterwards.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Historical research

    This is everybody on mongol side....does not include all of Tibet, Hami or Barkol

    Breakdown of Dayan Khan's descendents / tribes-

    dsc. Torobolod (7 Bolod's sons of Dayan)
    1. Tshakhars Sassaktu Khan, overlord of the Mongols.
    2. Sunids forms a section of the Chakhars, Kukdshitu, Mergen Taidshi
    3. Khagotshits forms a section of the Chakhars, Delekei, Erdeni Khungtaidshi

    dsc. Altsubolod
    4. Keshiktens (1) Sharalta, Mergen Noyan subject to Chakhars
    5. Dsarods (2) Ubashi, Waidsang Noyan
    6. Bagharins (2) Subakhai, Darkhan Noyan subject to Chakhars

    dsc. Torobolod
    7. Wesumutshins (2) Ongghon Dural subject to Chakhars
    8. Aokhans (1) Daitshing Dureng subject to Chakhars
    9. Naimans (1) Essen Waidsang subject to Chakhars

    dsc. Barsabolod
    10. Ordus Jinong (Viceroy) Gun Bilik Mergen - Noyandara 1522-1574 - Buyan Baghatur Khungtaidshi - Bushuktu
    11. Tumeds Altan Khan 1507-1582
    12. Nom Tarni - Khutuktai Setzen Khungtaidshi, great nephew to both Gun and Altan...2nd most able commander behind Altan, led the Bassod Uishins
    13. Bayas Khal (b.1510) younger brother of Gun and Altan....leader of the Kharachins.

    dsc. Khassar (brother of Chinggis)
    14. Mao Minggans (1) Shira Kitad, Tushiyetu khan - Dordshi, Buyantu khan
    15. Khoshotes
    16. Khortshins (3) Chitshik Baghatur Noyan - Ongghotai in 1593 makes war on Nurhaci
    17. Urads (3) Laikha - grandson Ombo
    18. Aru Khortshins (1) Begon Noyan, Kundulen Daitshing - Dalai - Modsang submits to Manchus in 1629
    19. Durben Keukeds (1) Begon Noyan, Kundulen Daitshing - Noyantai
    20. Khorlos (2) Ubashi - Manggo - Bumba in 1624 submits to Manchus
    21. Dorbeds (1) Ainakha, Setzen Noyan - Atutshu in 1624 makes peace with the Manchus
    22. Jelaids (1) Amin - Mungkhun in 1625 sends envoy to Manchus for peace

    dsc. Belgetei and Utsuken (younger half brother and youngest full brother)
    23. Ongnighods (2) Bayantai, Khongkhor Noyan
    24. Abaghas (2) Erdeni Tumen, Jassaktu Noyan
    25. Abaghanars (2) descendent of Nomi Demektu

    dsc. Keraits and Torghuts
    26. Torghuts Khoo-Urlug 1570-1644 Khan of the Torghuds

    dsc. Choros princes i.e. Dzungars and Derbets
    27. Khara Khula (1568-1634) 1/3 of the men Baibaghas Khan had; founder of the Dzungars
    28. Baibaghas Khan (d.1630)
    29. Baatur Dalai Taishi of Dorbods - most powerful oirat
    30. Torobaikhu Guushu Khan 1582-1655

    dsc. Khalkas
    31. Western Khalkhas Buyandara = Jassaktu Khan
    32. Western Khalkhas Tumendara Daitshing (younger brother of Buynadara) = Altyn Khan (near Lake Ubsa and Kemtshik)
    33. North Khalkhas Abatai Wadshirai Sain Khan = title from the Dalai Lama* check to see if Dalai is prominent as of this time
    34. Eastern Khalkhas (dependent on Chakhars) dsc. is thus Geressandsa - Amin Dural - Moro Buima - Shului...trying to figure out which Shului this is?
    35. Tumenkhan Tsogt Taij of the Khalkh 1581-1637 noble in north khalkha, expanded to Amdo present day Qinghai to help with Karma Kagyu sect.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Historical research

    Since the banners didn't come about until after the Imjin War, would it be better to save banner units as professional mid-high tier late-game units? Clan- or tribe-based military seemed to be the thing prior to Nurhaci, with the recruits largely adhering to how their people lived and fought, i.e. since only some tribes were nomadic the rest would still largely field infantry from the poorer classes.


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