A large proportion of the drone strikes in Western Pakistan may actually be manned strikes conducted by the Pakistani airforce

[Adar]

Source

This is one of the perspectives I've been looking for in the reports about "Western" activity in Pakistan and I am just putting up here for some input as I know that we have some Pakistani or otherwise knowledgeable members.

So how do we tell American strikes apart from the Pakistani strikes in the same region?

Buzz of death

“People are mentally disturbed as a result of the drone flights,” the Esso Khel villager told Amnesty. “We can’t sleep because of the planes’ loud sound.”
Problem is, Predators and Reapers spend most of their time at altitudes where they are generally inaudible. It’s for that reason that the U.S. Army used Predators in Iraq to orbit over insurgents’ meetings, striking them only after all the fighters had gathered together.
“Predator flies at about 10,000 feet,” Army Gen. Raymond Odierno told 60 Minutes. “It’s so high up [the insurgents] have trouble hearing it.”
So what are the Pakistanis in the tribal region seeing and hearing—and what’s killing them in cases when the drones aren’t overhead?
It’s worth recalling that the Pakistani government conducts its own operations against insurgents and terrorists in the tribal areas. The Pakistani air force alone launched more than 5,500 aerial sorties, dropped 10,600 bombs and struck 4,600 targets in the tribal areas in just the first two years of counter-insurgency operations starting in late 2008, according to Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman.
Notably, it’s standard practice for Pakistan’s manned warplanes such as F-16s to fly in groups of two or four—and the same for manned helicopters such as Pakistan’s AH-1 Cobras. And both the jets and the copters are louder than any drone.

[Condottiere 40K]

I did mention that possibility a while back.

[[Tar]Naru33]

lol if true.... That would explain why some villagers such as the one brought up in the OP have some wild belief that they can hear the drones in the sky.

[conon394]

Axe as few quirks and couple strong biases that anoy me but he and blog are generally solid, and it makes a lot of sense now does it not.

It certainly explains why the government of Pakistan publicly complains but never stops the US Military/CIA effort. It provides perfect cover for thier own heavy handed actions. I wonder if the US is actually tracking the issue for declassicication or PR release at some later day

[Condottiere 40K]

Then they should corrupt the next Snowden release and unobtrusively add that little factoid in.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Irks me just a little, if this is true. We're getting blamed for and complained at by people who are either doing worse or at the least the same exact thing.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind. That's the status quo of life, isn't it?

[conon394]

Ideed

Following the link to an older article from the Atlantic (hardly a jingoistic conservative source) that I actually had but lost.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...kistan/262862/

You know people should remember how we used to do things - If Nixon was facing the zero out option in A-stan - we would likely be just running B-52 carpet bombing into the tribal areas until the Taliban manged to send some poor sod to the negotiating table.

[Slydessertfox]

You know people should remember how we used to things - If Nixon was facing the zero out option in A-stan - we would likely be just running B-52 carpet bombing into the tribal areas until the Taliban manged to send some poor sod to the negotiating table.

Murica! yeah!

[justicar5]

Irks me just a little, if this is true. We're getting blamed for and complained at by people who are either doing worse or at the least the same exact thing.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind. That's the status quo of life, isn't it?

you claim to be the most moral and upright nation the world has ever seen and bash everyone with their supposed inferiority in this, so yes if you are shown to be hypocrites you will get bashed. You run torture camps, and terror operations, how, for instance is a suicide bomb at an army check point, or indeed the murder of Lee Rigby any different from the drone campaign? How is cracking down on the green revolution any different from the violent suppression of the Occupy movement? Why is one terror and one a legitimate tactic of war? One the actions of a police state, and the other legitimate? How is the Iranians support for Assad any different ffrom your support of the House of Saud? The dissonance you need to maintain is staggering.

[Rijul.J.Ballal]

Oh Pakistan you so silly..

[conon394]

you claim to be the most moral and upright nation the world has ever seen and bash everyone with their supposed inferiority in this, so yes if you are shown to be hypocrites you will get bashed. You run torture camps, and terror operations, how, for instance is a suicide bomb at an army check point, or indeed the murder of Lee Rigby any different from the drone campaign? How is cracking down on the green revolution any different from the violent suppression of the Occupy movement? Why is one terror and one a legitimate tactic of war? One the actions of a police state, and the other legitimate? How is the Iranians support for Assad any different ffrom your support of the House of Saud? The dissonance you need to maintain is staggering.

Umm that's a lot of straw men... In the narrow focused view the point is the US looks to be going to enormous effort and expense to fight a war with the lowest possible civilian casualties and is very likely getting tared with the ham-fisted sloppy tactics of our sort of nominal ally. Does that make us saints - nope. It does, however say we are trying to purse a military objective and spend a lot of treasure/money to not make it a blood bath. Now if you object to the fight - well than there is no point in talking but as I said in the past Northern Pakistan would just be a parking lot now. Did you read the link a few hundred drone strikes vs what 3000 Pakistani army/air force attacks in half the time?

[Vanoi]

I wonder how many civilian deaths have been blamed on drone strikes when they were actually the work of the Pakistani Air force?

[DarthLazy]

To criticize the airforce is unpakistani in the extreme, it even more haram than insulting army.

[conon394]

To criticize the airforce is unpakistani in the extreme, it even more haram than insulting army.

Although for me that's not really the issue I don't if the Pakistan military and or the IN i is manipulating the PR and or internal media controls make it so that everything is called a US drone strike. What bother me is a really piss poor report by Amnesty international they should know better thier own credibility depends on quality reports. Also I wonder what their solution is??? Their report admits Pakistan is not policing the area and that the locals are not either so what should the US do?

[DarthLazy]

Although for me that's not really the issue I don't if the Pakistan military and or the IN i is manipulating the PR and or internal media controls make it so that everything is called a US drone strike. What bother me is a really piss poor report by Amnesty international they should know better thier own credibility depends on quality reports. Also I wonder what their solution is??? Their report admits Pakistan is not policing the area and that the locals are not either so what should the US do?

You realize nobody gives a damn if the airforce blows up a few villages?

[conon394]

You realize nobody gives a damn if the airforce blows up a few villages?

I do but at minimum it might just in the US intrest to note the number of drone strikes vs the number of Pakistan's air operation in the same region.

[[Tar]Naru33]

I do but at minimum it might just in the US intrest to note the number of drone strikes vs the number of Pakistan's air operation in the same region.

I don't think it will matter to many against the drone program. It would take Pakistan stating that most of the deaths claimed to be from drone strikes, was from their air force, to get any reasonable amount of people to be like "ooooooh" and stop claiming U.S is committing tons of war crimes.

I mean come on, how are people even accurately counting the number of drone strikes in Pakistan anyways?

[Condottiere 40K]

Public Service Announcement - How to recognize when you have been targetted by a drone.

[Aanker]

Well, I mean, think about it.

X thing happens, it could be caused by not so democratic, not so developed country A, or the very developed and very democratized country B within which a large amount of politically active adherents and disdainers (both contribute to publicity!) of organization O resides.

Will organization O blame A or B? Remember that it could technically be both, in such a fashion that it wouldn't be too bizarre a stretch to say either. But still.

[DarthLazy]

It does not make any difference.