Bayonet: a special ability or what?

**Eric** · September 30, 2006, 09:29 PM

So i've been looking at some NTW2 screenshots (excellent work by the way) and i've noticed, unless units are engaged in melee, they don't have any bayonets fixed to their muskets. Are bayonets a special ability. You press the button on the interface, and then an officer shouts out fix bayonets and the unit does just that, or do bayonets just appear, like hoplite swords, when the infantry is about to charge? How do bayonets work?

**Mooncabbage** · September 30, 2006, 10:56 PM

I believe it's the latter option. Magical appearing bayonets and such. To be fair though, it really is the best option of those available. Most unfortunate that special abilities are so hard to mod, it would be useful to be able to quickly change between a column of say, 8 wide, and a line of 3 deep, regardless of unit numbers, or form a square, or something of that nature.

If any of the technical Lordz reads this, could you perhaps mention how you managed to get the artillery to fire cannister? It's not something I've looked into in great depth and I'm somewhat curious as to how you managed it.

**Adherbal** · October 01, 2006, 02:53 AM

cannister = "flaming boulder" with modified projectile stats.

**Mooncabbage** · October 01, 2006, 03:56 AM

Ahh.... that explains a few things. Is it not possible to make canister a sort of shotgun round then?

**Adherbal** · October 01, 2006, 04:04 AM

no, firing multiple projectiles isn't possible

**Mooncabbage** · October 01, 2006, 05:27 AM

Well MTW2 has that Organ Gun thingy, so I guess it's a bit of wait and see.

**Element-UK** · October 20, 2006, 06:45 AM

As for the Bayonet thing...What the Lordz have done is make Infantry a Missile unit, primarily through weapon usage, instead of a Spear Unit, even though the unit 'class' is spearmen.

This means that they could not even use the BI formations such as 'Shiltrom' for all NON-Light and Rifle Infantry. They have said they tried it but did not like it as far as I am aware.

Personally speaking I would love to see all the Line, Grens and Guard Infantry use the Shiltrom (circular defensive wall) as a special ability function so they can defend vs Cav Charges etc with their Bayonetts at the ready. Firing their guns would be limited to a secondary function like any other spear unit that throws or fires. The pleasure of hitting a defence vs cav function Icon would overide any other priority of the unit imo. It would also negate the need to disable the Skirmish mode before you use the unit. Lights and Rifles should be the ones that are far superior to line in Woods and tough terrain. At the moment they are no different except for their firing skill.

Just coz their is no square function does not mean they should not have something. At the moment they can only face one way in a block and still get massive casualties against even the weakest Cav unit. The gameplay of charging Inf with Cav just to put them in Squares (circles lol) and then wheeling away only to have Long range guns fire at them would add a great deal to the game. To defend vs cav or not to defend vs cav was always the tricky question. Some Napoleonic games such as 'Waterloo' it was automatic that the Inf form defensive formations when cav came within a certain range.

It has been tried they said, but I for one would like to see it made into an optional mod to give players the choice. This is where I get slammed by some irrate Flander-man lol. There has been a slight and vague explanation in the Lordz forums but it would be nice to see it in gameplay via a mod so ALL the players can make up their minds as to its usefullness. I have a hard time believing it doesn't work. Maybe that just me ? but then I did use firing Dragoons very successfullly with NTW 1 much to their displeasure even though it was perfectly balanced.

**Lord Zimoa** · October 20, 2006, 10:56 AM

I have a hard time believing it doesn't work.

LOL. I was not vague or slammed you, you just have a hard time excepting it will not work as we tested it intensly. Just tell me what part you did not understand.

Shiltron-square discussion on the Lordz forum

The spear units will not be able to fire anymore when they are not is square, a strange effect for Napoleonic infantry just to give them a round defensive circle that looks nothing like a square as we could not get it to work properly. If you can solve it, be our guest and we will immediately apply it. It is not a matter of us not wanting a good working square just we cannot without coding help from CA. We asked, but so far no response the last few years.

Your firing dragoons also gave some problems in NTW1, they worked good in MP, but in SP they would behave as a disaster.
The reason why we ditched that option afterwards.

LZoF

**Mooncabbage** · October 20, 2006, 04:10 PM

Try and mod the game yourself before you criticise the Lordz attempts, just see how far you get. If it COULD have been done, it WOULD have been done.

**Element-UK** · October 20, 2006, 05:55 PM

Forget the Square ! I just think it weird that the units were made as Missile units instead of spear to enable the use of the Shiltrom. Every other unit in rtw etc that has a missile as a secondary ability can still fire/throw etc when using their ability formation. That what i don't understand as surely they still fired when in shiltrom though of course limited ? So my question here is : Have Inf units ever been made to use their guns as a secondary rather than primary and therefore be able to use a formation ability ? That was never said in the linked forum posting's. btw, Dragoons worked great when limiting their ammo to two or three. If they were tested by others, it was not done after I found the perfect modding adjustments. It was done way prior to that. The linked conversations only made it clear that a missile unit could not switch to enable use of a spearmen function, made impossible by their use of missiles as primary.

As for Mooncabbages unrequired statement, your name says it all lol. If ntw2 had incorporated BI then these thing's would be moddable by modding laymen such as me. It has not, so go eat some space veg.

**Adherbal** · October 21, 2006, 04:34 AM

you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. A unit becomes a missile unit when you give it a projectile weapon, the "class" has no effect whatsoever other then the unit's position in the army list and the class name it shows (line, heavy, light, ...). Or are you suggesting we should remove all muskets just so soldiers can form shiltrom?
Next to that a projectile weapon is always the primary weapon, the only exception being siege weapons crews, who's secondary weapon affects the siege weapon.

**Mooncabbage** · October 21, 2006, 05:50 AM

Further, NTW2 is a mod for RTW 1.5 and as such, includes everything mod wise that BI (1.6) does. You really do have no idea what you are talking about. And your pathetic attempt to use my nick as an insult, says it all about YOU. You have been informed, you have been linked to lengthy discussions on the topic, and then told outright again.

If you STILL have a hard time believing it doesn't work, why don't you spend some of your OWN time trying to solve the problem yourself, instead of whinging to people who spend their free time producing the best mod possible and releasing it to *nice people* like you, free of charge.

[EDIT: let's all behave, shall we]

**Element-UK** · October 21, 2006, 11:15 AM

Wow you guys are so quick to judge what you think is a summed up situation. The topic had never been discussed on the forums before (at Lordz anyway), and it started with asking for a what's what. Their explanation was not a full one so i asked deeper questions, which got deeper asnwers. If the only way to get the full explanation is to ask fuller questions then so be it ! It's not a question of belief but merely wanting to see posted an explanation. Thanks for your 'neccessary' comments, but no thanks.

**Mooncabbage** · October 21, 2006, 06:21 PM

Ok fair enough, I should apologise for misjudging you. However the issue of putting units into squares, schiltroms and other special formations HAS been discussed at length, if not in a technical sense. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that, without the tools or an SDK from CA, we (by which I mean any modder, including the Lordz) cannot create our own special unit formations, or it would be a simple matter to create an appropriate unit square. However as the game stands, it is possible to make reasonably realistic squares by way of deep unit formations, back to back infantry units, and the Square formation. As for cavalry charges, anyone foolish enough to charge a solid line of infantry from the front is in for a nasty surprise, as cavalry tend to fare poorly in protracted battles against formed infantry. Even on Very Super Incredibly Hard AI setting, where the AI cheats horribly in terms of morale and combat effectiveness, medium and light cavalry fare extremely poorly against infantry even 3 or 4 ranks deep, and heavy cavalry are not much better. The chain rout is king, and ideally with cavalry you want to charge with them at such a time that the infantry will rout en masse (spelling?) shortly after contact is made, so as to minimise your losses. I'm sure you already knew that because of your experience with NTW1, however spend some time with NTW2 and you will work out the quirks and I am sure before long you will love it, it's flaws, everything about it, and not be able to imagine life without it.

In future if you DO have any particular questions which might be confused with undue criticism of the Lordz, it might be helpful if you are VERY specific with what you mean, so as to avoid confusion, and to ensure you get the best answer possible. Generally speaking you will find the people on this forum knowledgeable and more than willing to help you, assuming you side step pet hates.

Hope we have been helpful, can continue to be helpful, or prove to be helpful if that is not yet the case.

**Duke John** · October 22, 2006, 08:03 AM

I tested the Schiltrom formation almost immediately after I got BI. It can be used by missile units, but the whole unit can fire at once. If you have any respect and love for Napoleonic warfare then seeing such an abomination hurts the eyes. Another negative point was that it would mean that NTW2 would require BI. Since we made the decision to primarily focus on the MP public, we consequently decided to drop BI to increase the pool of potential NTW2 MP players.

All the other formations (testudo, phalanx, loose/close) have also been tested and none worked 100%.

**Element-UK** · October 28, 2006, 07:19 AM

Thanks for the replies. I can't see having to have BI being a pain as most if not all had it anyway by that time. So it does work but it's an eyesore. Personally speaking its an eyesore to have cav surround your 5/6 deep rank and atack from the rear as well lol. Its a shame it was primarily MP imo. It does not get played as much as it deserves because of that. The MP opportunities are few and far between and appear to be more usable by the elite few. I miss SP Campaign's.

**Mooncabbage** · October 29, 2006, 01:41 AM

Honestly it wouldn't be worth the stuffing around even if it could be done by some arcane hack. Sit back, relax, and wait for NTW3, since MTW2 looks a lot more gunpowder friendly, and with any luck the AI will be far improved.

Still, give the MP a go, I know a lot of TW fans don't like to give MP a go, and I think I can understand that, but NTW2 really pretty awesome MP, really you should try it out