Lorica Segmenta

[Freddy120]

Hey guys, first off I'd like to say this is a great mod but I have an issue with it which I think really impacts the historical accuracy. Why can't I get Roman legionaries with Lorica Segmentata in EB?

[Boriak]

As far as I know, Lorica Segmentata was used in a very small area of the empire - the Danube front. Since EB doesn't give you the option to create different kind of legions at different locations, they are all equipped with the Lorica Hamata. There are other, more Roman-centric mods if you want location-specific recruiting.

[Diocle]

As far as I know, Lorica Segmentata was used in a very small area of the empire - the Danube front. Since EB doesn't give you the option to create different kind of legions at different locations, they are all equipped with the Lorica Hamata. There are other, more Roman-centric mods if you want location-specific recruiting.

The fragments of Lorica Segmentata has been found everywhere: in Germany, probably in a location corresponding to the site of the battle of Teutoburg Forest, they have been found fragments of the first type of Lorica Segmentata named 'Karlkrise', used during the early times of the reign of Octavinus, in Britain have been found whole suits of Lorica Segmentata of the type named 'Cordbridge', then, many fragments have been found of a third later type named 'Newstead'. The Lorica Segmentata remained in use till the late III century almost in every region of the Empire, even if recent finds in Spain prove without any doubt that the Newstead type was still in use during the first half of the IV century.

Meanwhile we haven't found any complete exemplar of Lorica Hamata that remains a deep mystery in many details of its construction and production.

This is what they are telling us History and Archeology, if in EB the best Roman armour is not present, well, this is a free choice of the Mod team, that I've no right to discuss and criticize, but this choice has nothing to do with History, and this is one of the reasons why I'll never play this mod.

I love Historical accuracy.

[yuezhi]

Because this isn't gladiator.

[Hummer]

I think it's used in a different time frame of the Roman empire.
There have been endless arguments and discussions about this but I believe(I could be wrong) years ago the EB team determined it didn't fall in the 272 BC to 9 AD timeline.

Cheers

[Entropy Judge]

I think it's used in a different time frame of the Roman empire.
There have been endless arguments and discussions about this but I believe(I could be wrong) years ago the EB team determined it didn't fall in the 272 BC to 9 AD timeline.

Cheers

As far as we can tell, it didn't appear before 9 BC; given the short amount of time before its appearance and the end of the official timeline, and the fact that they would have to add new units (cutting out other units because EB is already at the maximum number of units), and that it was apparently only used in relatively small numbers and a localized area, and you get it not being worth adding. IIRC.

[yuezhi]

Hamata is proven to be better anyways.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Hamata is proven to be better anyways.

Hamata was better for resisting cuts, e.g. slashing attacks from swords, as it was harder to slash a huge cut into mail than into a metal band. Lorica segmenta was better for resisting blunt-force-trauma and single-point-of-impact piercing attacks, e.g. sling bullets, maces, arrows, spear points.

So which was better depended on what the enemy was equipped with. If fighting Gauls or Britons, I'd rather wear hamata. If fighting Dacians or Parthians, I'd rather wear lorica segmenta.

[Sint]

Hamata was better for resisting cuts, e.g. slashing attacks from swords, as it was harder to slash a huge cut into mail than into a metal band. Lorica segmenta was better for resisting blunt-force-trauma and single-point-of-impact piercing attacks, e.g. sling bullets, maces, arrows, spear points.

So which was better depended on what the enemy was equipped with. If fighting Gauls or Britons, I'd rather wear hamata. If fighting Dacians or Parthians, I'd rather wear lorica segmenta.

Mail can and will stop arrows and spears thrusts.

Anna Komnene

..and whilst the Turks were fleeing before him, they (who shoot as well backwards as forwards) would cover him with darts. When he had driven them out of the village, he would pick out the darts that were sticking all over him; and put on his coat-of-arms again... Then, turning round, and seeing that the Turks had come in at the other end of the street, he would charge them again, sword in hand, and drive them out. And this he did about three times in the manner I have described.

Bahā'al-Dīn

..drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them... I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks.

Riveted mail against stabs (swords)

Btw. using blunt trauma against the Lorica Segmentata could actually be more effectiv because the armor would be dented.
And the padding underneath both armors will protect you against blunt force(to an extent).

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Mail can and will stop arrows and spears thrusts.
And the padding underneath both armors will protect you against blunt force(to an extent).

The thickness and quality of the padding worn underneath the mail armour is the difference between the medieval Crusader knight or infantryman and the Roman legionary. The medieval gambeson was generally thicker than the Roman subarmalis. And it's the thickness and quality of the padding, combined with the mail, that increases the resistance to arrows and blunt trauma.

Thus medieval Crusader armour was generally better than Roman armour.

[Entropy Judge]

Thus medieval Crusader armour was generally better than Roman armour.

Weren't medieval weapons also better-quality (and the bows more powerful)?

[yuezhi]

Hamata was better for resisting cuts, e.g. slashing attacks from swords, as it was harder to slash a huge cut into mail than into a metal band. Lorica segmenta was better for resisting blunt-force-trauma and single-point-of-impact piercing attacks, e.g. sling bullets, maces, arrows, spear points.

So which was better depended on what the enemy was equipped with. If fighting Gauls or Britons, I'd rather wear hamata. If fighting Dacians or Parthians, I'd rather wear lorica segmenta.

I think hamata was better at resisting missiles. Somehow your statement makes ekdromoi pointless.

[Bladvak]

This question is answered in FAQ :

Europa Barbarorum FAQ

Q: Where is the Lorica Segmentata?
A: Lorica Segmentata wasn't used until several years in AD. This places Lorica Segmentata out of the EB time frame and to include it would be ahistorical.

you have one post, please read the faq before asking any frequently asked questions:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Barbarorum-FAQ

[Dargaron]

Would the Seljuks be using a form of the asymmetrical "Hunnish" bow described in EB as being used by the Saka Foot Archers and Horse Archers, or would they have been using an even more powerful type of bow?

[Ownager]

I thought the crossbow was replacing the conventional bow. Sorry if I'm wrong, but medieval history was never my specialty.

[Evalation]

I wouldnt say that it was "Replacing" the conventional bow, in 1415 the king of england defeated the French royal army at Agincourt by using his Longbowmen to mow down the French troops that had to charge across the muddy battlefield.

If im not mistaken the Romans used a type of Crossbow in the late empire days when it was split between east and west. The Romans even though they had some type of crossbow they still used the conventional bow in all of their legions while their "crossbow" was distributed to only a few elite troops who knew how to operate it properly.

Just my 2 cents.. dont know if im 100% correct but I believe im right on a few points made above.

[Ownager]

Probably not replace, definitely not like the composite bow replaced the regular one, but gradually grew more popular. In BI you can use those crossbow men. Bucellarii they are called.

[Evalation]

Bucellarii they are called.

A yes that was indeed the name I was trying to remember. In BI(I play the mod IB:SAI for this expansion) I mainly use the Sagitarii Comitatenses(Spellcheck) in my armies.

[Ownager]

I don't think there are any Sagitarii Comitatenses. The WRE has archers called archers and pitiful excuses for Horse archers called Sagitarii. Oh, you are on Invasion Barbarorum. I have no clue then.

[Sint]

in 1415 the king of england defeated the French royal army at Agincourt by using his Longbowmen to mow down the French troops that had to charge across the muddy battlefield.

Well that's not that easy.

The cavalary charge failed because the longbowman killed the unbarded horses of the french knights,the knights were actually protected quite good.
The infantry charge failed because the french were unorganized and charged at the organized englisch men at arms and knights.

The main problem was that the french horses weren't armored and that the longbowman fortified their position with stakes.