Giving peace a chance

[Anabasis]

While waiting for DeI, I have been experimenting with getting more realistic cycles of war and peace. The problem seems to be that once a war starts, there is really no mechanism for it to stop short of destruction or vassalage of one side. The very fact of being at war with a faction imposes a very serious diplomacy hit, and every warlike action after that does the same, making peace essentially impossible. I have modded vanilla so that inflicting losses on the enemy causes a diplomacy benefit instead of a penalty, and I have removed the penalty for being at war. The diplomacy benefit of beating an enemy army or capturing one of their settlements is substantial but shortlived (low decline value, paradoxically).

The result is that inflicting a rapid series of military disasters on the enemy makes them receptive to peace, and sometimes even to alliance. This is a much more realistic portrayal of ancient warfare. Leagues emerge out of wars, which is essentially what happened in Italy. From what I can tell, this also addresses at least some of the two-front war problem of the major factions. If the CAI beats back another faction's invasion on one side, it can then make peace and turn around and deal with the other faction.

I have started a Pontus campaign and the results were quite striking even early on. Wars tend to last a few turns, are not always fatal to one side, and end in a peace treaty. Early on, for example, the Seleucid declared war on Bithynia and Sardes (as a satrap) invaded without waiting for support. Bithynia smashed up the Sardic army and captured Iconium from them. This resulted in an immediate peace treaty and the area has been stable ever since. The other positive development is that while the big factions don't necessarily get very big, they do tend to sit at the center of nice sized powerblocks. For example, Carthage (with C. Nova) is currently allied with Lybia and Syracuse, and is in an uneasy peace with Rome which controls all of Italy up to the Po and is allied with the Veneti. I have some screeshots at 262 (3tpy) showing all this, but I am not finding a way to upload them (too big I guess). I'll post them when I can.

The mod is crude at the moment and I need to refine and balance the values. I think I could also do better with some scripting. Will look into that after a bit more testing. I am looking forward to trying this with DeI.

[yukishiro1]

I have modded vanilla so that inflicting losses on the enemy causes a diplomacy benefit instead of a penalty, and I have removed the penalty for being at war. The diplomacy benefit of beating an enemy army or capturing one of their settlements is substantial but shortlived (low decline value, paradoxically).

The result is that inflicting a rapid series of military disasters on the enemy makes them receptive to peace, and sometimes even to alliance. This is a much more realistic portrayal of ancient warfare. Leagues emerge out of wars, which is essentially what happened in Italy. From what I can tell, this also addresses at least some of the two-front war problem of the major factions. If the CAI beats back another faction's invasion on one side, it can then make peace and turn around and deal with the other faction.

Ooh, that is really smart. That's a problem I've been trying to address via my minimod and hadn't made much headway. I think your approach is super promising. Mind sharing the mod and/or telling me where the tables are? I'd love to try messing around with the same variables!

[Anabasis]

I think I am starting to get this steam thing. Here are the screens, I hope.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Province ownership at the start of 262 (30 turns). The Seleucid and Egyptians are doing fine, and Carthage is actually doing better than it looks. See next screenshot.

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/...FDAAA72B1C6BA/

Carthaginian power block at the start of 262 (30 turns)

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...iles&view=grid

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Anabasis]

Oops, where's the edit button?

Yukishiro, I try to upload the pack file later today. The main tables are in cai_personality_event_values and cai_personality_diplomatic_treaty_values.

[yukishiro1]

That screen looks really promising. That may be a better way to keep the big factions alive than what I was doing. You may really be onto something. I am going to mess with those tables a bit and see what happens!

[Selea]

Very good indeed.

Keep us posted on your progress!

[Anabasis]

I am in 260, and as far as I can tell, the first punic war just broke out. The Romans took out Syracuse and it seems that Carthage intervened on the Syracusan side in a losing battle. As a result, Carthage is now sitting out the war, and Lybia has taken the lead, supported by what remains of the etruscan league (in Corsica). Nova Carthago got involved in an adventure in Spain, and the relationship with Carthage is now strained (reddish brown). The east is fairly stable. Let's see where it goes from here. I'll try to get an agent in Northern Italy to observe a potential opportunistic gallic invasion.

[Draikz]

why hasn't anyone thought of this before? It sounds really promising. Can't wait for your first realease

[yukishiro1]

What's the difference between default/diplomat/historian values? Do you have any idea?

I changed them all, and the result was that although enemies liked it when I pwned them, allies disapproved of me pwning our joint enemies!

[Anabasis]

Newsflash. Etruscan League (Corsica) just dropped out of the war and made a separate peace with Rome.

Yukishiro, as far as I can tell, the historian has higher decline values, so remembers things longer, while the diplomat puts more weight than the other two on all diplomatic incidents. I have noticed that sometimes allies disapprove of mutual enemy ownage, but it doesn't see to be consistent. Looking into it.

[carbide]

This sounds really promising, any chance of a sub mod release?

I'm thinking this will eventually make into DeI if allowed.

[Butan]

Good modding idea.

[Anabasis]

258. Lybia and Rome shared control of Sicily. Rome just severely mauled a Lybian invasion of Syracusan territory. The Lybians are now highly receptive to peace, but it looks like no one has propsed it yet. Rome picked up Sardinia from Lybia, which is now restricted to the North African coast.

[Black9]

I'll be following this closely. If I crush someone a few times will they submit to being a client/satrapy?

[yukishiro1]

It looks like it might be built into the treaty states themselves to do the inverse stuff. I haven't been able to find where that data is kept. I.e., the data on what war actually is, what an alliance actually is, that sort of thing. Any ideas?

[Anabasis]

255 (51 turns). First Punic War is over. It lasted 260-257 and resulted in a Roman expansion to the Mediterranean islands. After the beating they took, the Lybians have become a client state of Carthage. Carthago Nova displeased the Mother City by becoming involved in Spain and they did not fare too well. They have now made peace with the Confederation in Spain, but have lost substantial territory.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Region ownership 255

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...3/screenshots/

The Hellenic world is fairly quiet and unified, although it is facing a threat from the East.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...3/screenshots/

The Romans have expanded south and stabilized their northern border in a short but violent war with Liguria which resulted in a Ligurian surrender.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7...3/screenshots/

[Anabasis]

Black9, I haven't tried to offer satrapy yet, but I will next time I am at war. It seems that even with this setup some cai personality types are not easy to deal with. Cimmeria declared war on me and I completely destroyed them over the course of about 8 turns. By the end, they had a ridiculously high disposition toward me, but they never accepted peace.

Yukishiro: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that allies get negative disposition from your victories over common enemies. It means that as you gain successes in a war, the enemy warms up to you, and your allies cool down. If you get too greedy, or if you grow to fast, you lose their support and could even make them into enemies. I think that is what kept the balance in the West when N. Carthago started campaigning in Spain. Carthage got upset and didn't support them. They were therefore in a better position to counter the Romans.

[Anabasis]

Let me try to post the 255 ownership shot in a more convenient format

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[yukishiro1]

Black9, I haven't tried to offer satrapy yet, but I will next time I am at war. It seems that even with this setup some cai personality types are not easy to deal with. Cimmeria declared war on me and I completely destroyed them over the course of about 8 turns. By the end, they had a ridiculously high disposition toward me, but they never accepted peace.

Yukishiro: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that allies get negative disposition from your victories over common enemies. It means that as you gain successes in a war, the enemy warms up to you, and your allies cool down. If you get too greedy, or if you grow to fast, you lose their support and could even make them into enemies. I think that is what kept the balance in the West when N. Carthago started campaigning in Spain. Carthage got upset and didn't support them. They were therefore in a better position to counter the Romans.

I don't have a problem with a modest penalty but right now they seem pretty high. 1/3 to 1/2 of any bonus you get ends up being a minus with your allies. Seems a bit harsh.

[yukishiro1]

As far as I can tell, every time I get positive diplomatic relations from owning someone, everyone else at war with them starts hating me because of it. It must have something to do with how the coding is done for the derivative values. In must just take the inverse, so when you change what used to be a negative to a positive, you end up changing what should be a positive to a negative, too.

Gotta find a way to fix that before it becomes a decent way to manage things IMO.

Also, peace doesn't necessarily happen even if you have very positive ratings. For example, I tested a +400 bonus for taking a city. I took one of Rome's cities, and I am now at war with them but have about +250 faction with them. And yet they won't even consider peace.