Watch Tory's laugh at people starving at food banks.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...o-iain-2941100

Watch Iain Duncan Smith SNEAK OUT of food banks debate as Tories LAUGH at stories of starving families

IT was the day the Nasty Party showed its true-blue colours – by sneering at the plight of hungry families forced to rely on food banks.Tory MPs laughed and jeered as they were told how some hard-up shoppers were so desperate they fought to snap up discounted items in supermarkets.
Astonishingly, all the Government ministers from the responsible departments – including Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith – sneaked out after just an hour of the crucial Commons debate.
By then a cowardly IDS had already ducked questions, putting forward his deputy instead.
In one of the most shameful episodes ever witnessed in Parliament, Tory backbenchers sniggered and hooted as Labour MP Fiona MacTaggart told of shocking scenes at her local Tesco in Slough, Berks, as people battled over cut-price fruit and veg.
She said the store had now been forced to draft in extra security.
Almost drowned out by mocking Tory MPs, she asked: “Isn’t that a shocking sign in the 21st century?”
Senior Labour politicians later described the Tories’ callous reaction as “shameful” and “a total disgrace”.
Labour MP Jamie Reed said: “I regret to say the laughter from the Government benches says more about this issue than words ever could.”
His colleague Barry Gardiner said it was “extraordinary” to see Mr Duncan Smith smirking as it was pointed out that half a million people are now using food banks.
And The Trussell Trust, the nation’s largest provider of food banks, said it was “disappointed” by the attitude of those who jeered.
Labour had called the debate after nearly 150,000 people signed a petition backed by the Mirror, the Unite union and The Trussell Trust calling for an inquiry into the growing dependence on food aid.

They just do not give a dam.Heartless and cruel at this time of year.People starving and they give millions in aid to China.TWC unite and show your disgust at this elitism.

Speaker John Bercow said he had no power to stop them, but said the view that it was a disgrace there was no minister there “may be widely shared”. Shadow Environment Secretary Maria Eagle said the increasing need for food banks was a damning indictment of Government policy.
She added: “Since April this year more than 500,000 people have relied on assistance from the 400 food banks run by The Trussell Trust charity, double the number of food banks compared to this time last year.” She added: “It’s a scandal which is getting worse and the Government now has the humiliation of the Red Cross helping to collect and distribute food aid in Britain for the first time since the Second World War.”
Former Labour Cabinet minister Paul Murphy told the Commons he had never seen such poverty in his 40 years as a Welsh politician, apart from during the 1984 Miners’ Strike.
Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves told the House: “It’s a tale of two nations – tax cuts for the rich, food banks for the poor.”
Not all Tories joined in the mocking and jeering.
Wycombe MP Steve Baker gave an emotional speech in support of food banks as he revealed how poverty had caused the break-up of his family when he was a child.
He said there was no one to help when his self-employed dad ran out of work. They had to go hungry and his parents eventually split up.
He blamed the current plight of hard-up families on politicians pretending there is a “magic wand” to solve the problem.
Mr Baker said 12,000 children in Buckinghamshire were currently living in poverty, with one in five in his constituency going to bed hungry, rising to one in three in some areas.
He added: “It is a scandalous indictment of the safety net that is the welfare state.”

at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...#ixzz2nvXS5wKT


Think of the poor at Christmas the ing Tory's wont.Give to charity this Xmas if you can TWC.

[nce_wht_guy]

Somebody's going to be getting a visit from three angry spirits this Christmas.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Just going to throw in a few other sources there a well Tom to back up what your saying my friend;

Tory ministers have been condemned for not taking the plight Britain's poor seriously after a rowdy Commons debate on food banks during which the Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith refused to answer questions and left early.

As Fiona MacTaggart, the Labour MP for Slough, described how people battled over end of day bargains in her local Tesco, she was almost drowned out by laughter and jeering from the government benches.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...y-9013917.html

An interesting article into the entire situation too:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/p...nks?CMP=twt_gu

It seems the government ministers (Though not all Tories to be fair) are actually actively trying to prevent various research data about the causes of the increase of people using foodbanks, most likely because its their own policies which have caused this.

It's tell too that Ian Duncan Smith actually left early... the man who's department is responsible in part for this..

But if we take the economic and indeed political issues and debate aside. The simple fact the Tories though it was ok to laugh and cheer at the general public who make use of such a Food bank is actually disgusting.

Reading up on this, it actually left me cold. The Conservatives in the main seem so out of touch with reality, seem so stuck up, so stupid, that they think something like this is acceptable!?

It was actually also highlighted in a BBC interview with a Tory MP about their pay rise, and when asked about what he would so to critics saying it's ill timed and ill deserved he replied 'Well we can't allow ourselves to be dictated by the mob'...

WHAT THE ? Firstly, yes, yes you can. That's rather how democracy works, secondly it highlights the mentality of some in their party, he probably too had a good laugh at those using the food banks. It amazes me that such a disgusting individual could ever achieve such prominence in politics...then i remember which party he belongs too.

It's almost enough to make one shout 'FREEDOM' in the Scottish Referendum... almost.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

That post was great I wish I had made it in my op.I should rob your posts or at least learn from them.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

That post was great I wish I had made it in my op.I should rob your posts or at least learn from them.

Haha i thank you Tom, though to be fair i'm just building on the material you set in motion. It's a very interesting and relevant topic, that currently in the UK (much to my despair) is trying to be brushed under the carpet.

Darn, I have to spread some rep around before giving it to Dante again for his brilliant post!!!

Haha i thank you my friend! Nice of you to say, to be honest though it's just something that i feel really needs attention in the UK. Our ruling party are currently so out of touch with reality, it's beyond belief.

For instance i'd also highlight an issue that arguably is a double edged sword;

David Cameron seized on news of a sharp fall in unemployment on Wednesday as evidence that the coalition's economic plan is working, while City analysts warned that the rapid improvement in the labour market could trigger an earlier-than-expected rise in interest rates.Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England, has pledged to leave borrowing costs on hold at 0.5% at least until the unemployment rate hits a "threshold" of 7%. But since that policy was announced in August, employment has risen much faster than he expected.
Official figures showed that the unemployment rate fell to a four-and-a-half year low of 7.4% in the three months to October, down from 7.7% between May and July, prompting economists to predict that the Bank's threshold could be hit within months. Threadneedle Street has forecast that the threshold could be reached in 2015.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...interest-rates

Sounds fantastic right? Cameron leaps on this. But the small thing is actually spoken of in the article also;

Despite the improving conditions in the labour market, there was little evidence that the prolonged squeeze on wages is easing, however. The ONS said total pay rose at an annual rate of 0.9% in October, or 0.8% including bonuses. That compares with an inflation rate of 2.2% in the same month, suggesting that on average, living standards are continuing to fall.Frances O'Grady, the general secretary of the TUC, said: "These are undoubtedly positive figures, but we should not forget how far we still have to go to restore pre-crash living standards through better pay and jobs."
Rachel Reeves, the shadow work and pensions secretary, said: "Today's fall in unemployment is welcome, but families are facing a cost-of-living crisis and on average working people are now £1,600 a year worse off under this out-of-touch government."

As you can see, it's way too premature for this, both the Tories and possibly the Bank of England are failing to take into account that a lot of these 'new' jobs are low paid, unsecured or even not actually real jobs! Being 0 hour contracts. An increase in interest for those who have been almost forced to take out loans would be a disaster. The figures just arn't as strong as their trying to pass them off as. Until for instance, Jobs once again are full time, and the glaring issue of the 0 hour contracts are taken care of, we remain with a lower quality of living and rising costs.

aised concern over the 1.47m people in part-time jobs because they could not find full-time work, the highest since records began in 1992. "It is good our economy is creating more jobs, but the problem is that too many of them are part-time or low-paid or insecure," he said at Prime Minister’s Questions.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...interest-rates

This is arguably a real danger, especially if the Tories then start prematurely thinking about possible future suggestions in policy based off of what is in effect an incomplete picture (which they seem to be doing!) Before any kind of further measures or changes can be considered, we need to turn these extra jobs into real careers for people, providing a steady income with opportunities for advancement, not 0 hour contracts or part time work.

Again the tories also fall short on this issue (Liberal democrats in coalation with them also share the blame though)-

Business leaders welcomed the move not to ban zero-hours contracts but union bosses said the government was "desperately short on solutions" to restrict their use.'Fair deal'

Mr Cable told the BBC up to one million people could be using zero-hour contracts.
But he said the estimates were "wildly varying", as a lot of people "did not know" if they were on the contracts, since there was often no formal structure in place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25442506

You see while indeed their great for the employer. Their not so great for the employee. And i can say from first hand experience they are NOT 'flexibile' (their only selling point). Typically if you don't accept a shift at their beck and call (This can be anytime, anywhere, sometimes with no advance warning), then they overlook you for further shifts for weeks after as being 'unreliable'. Thus it's actually like an enforced servitude (if i may be so sensational) - you can't get full or even part time work, you need money to support yourself- this is the only option currently.

But back to the thread, while indeed their are arguments (some viable, especially for the greater economic picture) against what i've just put forward, what i don't think can be contested is that:

A) The tories are totally out of touch.

B) This was a disgusting show of behavior, confirming point A.

Something really needs to be done.

[mongrel]

That post was great I wish I had made it in my op.I should rob your posts or at least learn from them.

The OP isn't bad either. About time for a thread covering issues affecting real people.

The class war line is really getting boring now. It's honestly the only thing Labour (and their associated newspapers) have to attack the government with.

If nothing else it's a distraction from the fact that Labour have no credible plan for the economy, aren't really a credible opposition, and that many of the people sitting on the Labour front bench played a pretty significant part in getting us into such a mess to begin with.

I think that there are still plenty among the British electorate who are smart enough to see through the class war crap Labour continually spout.

Yes the Tories are horribly out of touch. Yes the Lib Dems have been an utter failure in the Coalition. Yes Labour are a bunch of rank amateurs struggling to make everyone forget it was them who overborrowed and overspent to begin with.

What we need is a total reboot of British politics.

It not boring it is a cock up waiting to happen.

Wages have been too low in Britain compared with living expenses for most Britons for decades. Instead putting a lid on rents, mortgages and utility prices New Labour threw money at the problem by subsidizing wages through tax credits. Employers paying poverty wages had no incentive to change as long as their employees were effective employed by the state. Then comes the Coalition cutting the welfare bill leaving lesser paid workers who were used to receiving government money being strung up by the goolies.

[neoptolemos]

Darn, I have to spread some rep around before giving it to Dante again for his brilliant post!!!

[Phier]

So when do people start to die from hunger in the UK?

[Dante Von Hespburg]

So when do people start to die from hunger in the UK?

I don't particularly like the Daily Express, i feel it has a very obvious bias sometimes, and a panache for blowing things out of proportion, but this article is of interest for the quotes from first hand sources- charities and such:

A new food bank is opening every week as charities struggle to cope with increasing numbers of people hit by a combination of Government cuts, rising unemployment and soaring food and fuel prices.The Sunday Express has uncovered shocking cases of hunger and deprivation, even among the middle classes in areas once considered affluent.
Diseases linked to poverty, such as rickets, could be making a comeback as Britons battle against the odds.
One charity, The Trussell Trust, which operates 200 food banks across the country, says it is overwhelmed with increasing demand from Britain’s “hidden hungry”.
Earlier this month an Army veteran and his wife committed suicide after struggling to live “hand to mouth” on food handouts from a soup kitchen they walked 10 miles to get to.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/286...arving-Britain

Tim Lobstein, spokesman for the Child Poverty Action Group, said the crisis was directly linked to the Government’s £8billion cuts to welfare benefits.He said it was inevitable that the poorest suffer first, but our own enquiries show middle-income families have also been hit hard.
Mr Lobstein continued: “As we approach the 200th anniversary of the birth of Dickens next year it is awful that families are suffering the same trouble we associated with Dickensian Britain.” The Trussell Trust calculates it will feed 100,000 people between 2011 and 2012.
For the same period last year the figure was 60,000; for 2009-2010 it was 41,000.
The Trust, launched in Salisbury 11 years ago, has found it difficult to meet demand lately. It recently heard about a family and their elderly relatives who had not eaten for two days.

As you can see smacks of sensationalism, but does provide an interesting commentary, in which their is an issue here.

Aha!

A far better source, and one i don't feel embarrassed about using:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11427207

"The Department for Work and Pensions will say people's benefits are not stopped while a re-assessment is taking place. That is not true. Our foodbanks are increasingly helping people who are having their benefits stopped during reassessment.
"The DWP might say this only happens for three weeks or so, and what's the problem? But if you're living week to week then that's a long gap to cover when you're trying to feed yourself and a family."

Food parcels are associated with famine-struck parts of the world. Yet there is a "hidden hunger" in Britain, according to one charity, which has seen a surge in demand for its emergency supply boxes.

And finally, direct from source (though again Charities aren't the most even handed in their data)

The collections, which will take place on 29 and 30 November and 1 December, are set to help feed about 130,000 people across the UK. The charity estimates 5.8 million people in Britain are struggling to afford everyday essentials like food.

http://www.redcross.org.uk/About-us/...nger-in-the-UK

And finally to end with another source i personally dislike, but is a source none-the-less, especially on some of the first hand data;

Experts say big rise in malnutrition cases since economic crisis began
In 2008, 3,161 patients admitted to hospital - rising to over 5,000 in 2012
Number of people fed by food banks risen from 26,000 to 347,000 in 2012

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ies-soars.html

'Experts' - which experts!? But beyond that, their is some truth to it.

So in answer to your question my friend, i'm thinking in some ways it might be a real risk, but i doubt deaths will be the consequence. There seems to be quite a significant amount of support from charities to make up for the mess of the current government. Something does need to be done though. And laughing and jeering at this by the leaders meant to safeguard the public... That certainly needs to change.

[Guy]

Remember that time I told everyone how we're ruled by rich people who don't care about the working class & how capitalism is destroying us?

Ah, forget it! You kids these days with your iPods and your Tamagotchis.

So when do people start to die from hunger in the UK?

Whenever the media decides it's time to find a new story.

[Phier]

The problem I've seen is how "hunger" is defined and the political nonsense behind it. In the US I've seen hunger defined as missing two meals a week. By that definition I live in hunger being I skip breakfast daily.

[Knight of Heaven]

The problem I've seen is how "hunger" is defined and the political nonsense behind it. In the US I've seen hunger defined as missing two meals a week. By that definition I live in hunger being I skip breakfast daily.

The diference is you miss because you want, and not miss it because you cant aford it. Another thing is also skip your children meals. Wich it happens. So tell me if that already qualifies as hunger.

[Thorn777]

The problem is people who like to pretend being tough and business oreiented, but actually are just little peckers who couldnt hit a dent in life without turning into a complete with opinions backed up by rational and a lost narrative - besides "look at what communism got you, so lets rolll on with this times 10".

They mold this world to their benefit and we have to live in it. Whats not to laugh about? Its just a PR failure, but its every day business...

[Phier]

The problem is people who like to pretend being tough and business oreiented, but actually are just little peckers who couldnt hit a dent in life without turning into a complete with opinions backed up by rational and a lost narrative - besides "look at what communism got you, so lets rolll on with this times 10". They mold this world to their benefit and we have to live in it.

Hungry?

[Pielstick]

The class war line is really getting boring now. It's honestly the only thing Labour (and their associated newspapers) have to attack the government with.

If nothing else it's a distraction from the fact that Labour have no credible plan for the economy, aren't really a credible opposition, and that many of the people sitting on the Labour front bench played a pretty significant part in getting us into such a mess to begin with.

I think that there are still plenty among the British electorate who are smart enough to see through the class war crap Labour continually spout.

Yes the Tories are horribly out of touch. Yes the Lib Dems have been an utter failure in the Coalition. Yes Labour are a bunch of rank amateurs struggling to make everyone forget it was them who overborrowed and overspent to begin with.

What we need is a total reboot of British politics.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

The problem I've seen is how "hunger" is defined and the political nonsense behind it. In the US I've seen hunger defined as missing two meals a week. By that definition I live in hunger being I skip breakfast daily.

Indeed i think your concerns here are fair ones. It's a high over-sensationalized word to throw around politically, hence my distaste for newspapers that do. I think a better and more relevant issue would be perhaps coining it as 'First world hunger', i.e. you can still look at Africa and go 'thank god my life isn't that', but in comparison to the vast majority of the rest of the first world, your relying on food subsidies to support you and your family, while what little money you have goes on bills etc. But i guess my 'First world hunger' Doesn't sell papers, not stirs emotions.

Also i would tell you off for skipping breakfast! :p But i guess it depends which exercise philosophy you go for, my dinner tends to be tiny!

The class war line is really getting boring now. It's honestly the only thing Labour (and their associated newspapers) have to attack the government with.

If nothing else it's a distraction from the fact that Labour have no credible plan for the economy, aren't really a credible opposition, and that many of the people sitting on the Labour front bench played a pretty significant part in getting us into such a mess to begin with.

I think that there are still plenty among the British electorate who are smart enough to see through the class war crap Labour continually spout.

Yes the Tories are horribly out of touch. Yes the Lib Dems have been an utter failure in the Coalition. Yes Labour are a bunch of rank amateurs struggling to make everyone forget it was them who overborrowed and overspent to begin with.

What we need is a total reboot of British politics.

I would definitely agree, we do need a total reboot of British politics. Don't get me wrong i'm not going to defend Labours actions, as they were short sighted, and didn't take into account that A) They'll be the possibility of another recession after so food a time of growth and B) That if the recession did hit, they either wouldn't be in power, or could just bury it's effects as they tried to do (I still remember to Tories complaining about the true state of the previous governments finances when it come to light what the actual reality of our borrowing had been!)

But i think there is cause for concern with the class divides growing. Labour are not an innocent party by any means, and they are indeed trying to politically use the current situation to their advantage. But that doesn't stop there being such issues.

As mongrel has pointed out, and i've sourced, living standards among the lower classes have been declining, this is despite the Tories crowing over their new 'jobs', which again don't even support anyone properly. The data they're releasing is very deceptive.

Wages in the UK have seen one of the largest falls in the European Union during the economic downturn, according to official figures.
The figures, which were requested by the Labour Party and collated by the House of Commons library, show average hourly wages have fallen 5.5% since mid-2010, adjusted for inflation.
That is the fourth-worst decline among the 27 EU nations .
By contrast, German hourly wages rose by 2.7% over the same period.
Across the European Union as a whole, average wages fell 0.7%.
Only Greek, Portuguese and Dutch workers have had a steeper decline in hourly wages, the figures showed.

Working people are not only worse off under the Tories, we're also doing much worse than almost all other EU countries.
"Despite out-of-touch claims by ministers, life is getting harder for ordinary families as prices continue rising faster than wages."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23655605

The biggest drop in living standards since the Victorian age is seeing low and middle earners suffering an unprecedented squeeze on their incomes as austerity measures continue to bite, with women and part-time workers disproportionately affected, research reveals today.More than five million people are officially classified as low paid and an increasing number of public sector workers are struggling to make ends meet, according to the New Economics Foundation (NEF) think-tank.
It warned: “Workers on low and middle incomes are experiencing the biggest decline in their living standards since reliable records began in the mid-19th century.”


The NEF has calculated that the public sector now employs one million low-wage workers – double the previous estimate – with health and social care staff, classroom assistants and council employees trapped on small earnings.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...a-8991842.html

As you can see my friend, there is a serious issue brewing here, that needs looking at. NOT tory derision, which lets face it, is disgusting. Though your right in saying just who will fix this?

The Lib Dems, who have lost their main support (The Student vote) for their betrayal. Labour, who everyone remembers got us into the financial mess (In part), or the Tories, out of touch, and insulting. Who under while the economy is growing, Brits aren't't feeling the benefits of that growth, its on the back of cheap labour, and massaged employment figures. Frankly we're in trouble.

[Pielstick]

The problem isn't that wages are too low - the problem is that the cost of living is too high. Remember if we just increase wages across the board then prices will increase to match. What we've got is an environment where the likes of utility and rail companies with shareholders to satisfy are not afraid to increase their prices way beyond the rate of inflation because they know that no government has the balls to stop them.

What to do? Really I don't know. I'm starting to think that in the cases mentioned above - energy and rail companies - the only way to rein them in is a very real threat that if they can't provide a decent service without crippling prices they will be re-nationalised. Now of course we know that's never going to happen.

The whole standard of living thing has been compounded by the years of cheap and easy credit. Everyone was able to quite easily live beyond their means and now that's come to a shuddering halt people have been brought back down to earth with a bump. Then of course there's the whole national debt thing which Labour want us to forget they had any hand in creating. For all the baying for Tory blood because they're a bunch of rich toffs who don't have the first idea how normal Britons live, what Labour did with their 13 years in office is utterly unforgivable because they've saddled you and me - and quite probably our kids too - with the mess to clean up.

Basically the result of years of mismanagement and political ineptitude by at least two generations of governments of both colours.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

The problem isn't that wages are too low - the problem is that the cost of living is too high. Remember if we just increase wages across the board then prices will increase to match. What we've got is an environment where the likes of utility and rail companies with shareholders to satisfy are not afraid to increase their prices way beyond the rate of inflation because they know that no government has the balls to stop them.

What to do? Really I don't know. I'm starting to think that in the cases mentioned above - energy and rail companies - the only way to rein them in is a very real threat that if they can't provide a decent service without crippling prices they will be re-nationalised. Now of course we know that's never going to happen.

Indeed some good points raised in your post (as usual) my friend. I would agree that there are several main factors causing the current decline in living standards, the actual cost of living itself being one of the. Ideally though i'd argue, both that and wages need to be addressed to somehow re-balance everyone's disposable income (Which too would fuel economic growth, probably more so than now). The cost of living needs to go down, and wages raised (Somethings very seriously wrong when your in the bottom 3 in Europe and yet your the 3rd largest economy- there's no reason for us to be only slightly better than Greece in terms of wage decrease). The critics of my theory of course point out (or will) how it would in essence slow down the economic recovery, as current employers, especially with the 0 hour contracts have never had it so good in terms of low staffing costs.

But i would argue, economic growth, which no one in the country actually feels, is no growth at all. Better to be steady, slow and sustainable than surprising everyone by beating targets. In the long term too it will benefit everyone as a stronger financial base for each family unit will mean more is given back into the economy, creating sustainable long term growth.

But indeed as you've said, how to bring down the cost of living? Definitely not in the way Labour tried to cap it, with government tax breaks and subsidies. It just isn't sustainable. Re-nationalization, might work as a threat, but again we both know as you've said quite rightly it won't happen- Theirs a Tory government in power who's off-loading services to the private sector left, right and center! The Government (or future governments) need to find the power to come down hard on these businesses. Energy as we've identified is a big culprit here, the threat of higher taxation 'The green tax' might coerce them into making some changes. Though the current government went for appeasement i believe, in negotiating to get rid of such a tax. A good, and a bad move. It's a mess really, the only viable mid term solution would be the creation of more competition for these companies. Stop favoring a few with contracts, and award it to complete newcomers, the more competition there is, the better the market for consumers (and in theory, the better returns for the government).

The whole standard of living thing has been compounded by the years of cheap and easy credit. Everyone was able to quite easily live beyond their means and now that's come to a shuddering halt people have been brought back down to earth with a bump. Then of course there's the whole national debt thing which Labour want us to forget they had any hand in creating. For all the baying for Tory blood because they're a bunch of rich toffs who don't have the first idea how normal Britons live, what Labour did with their 13 years in office is utterly unforgivable because they've saddled you and me - and quite probably our kids too - with the mess to clean up.

Basically the result of years of mismanagement and political ineptitude by at least two generations of governments of both colours.

Indeed, though the bump i think for many has become a pit. Alas the Tory cuts keep hitting the people who are most vulnerable (probably why their doing it to be fair, it's less hassle then trying to go after the typical tory voter). Don't worry though, i'm in no hurry to forget Labours complete up. We will indeed i feel be feeling that for at least the next few decades, Britain's economy will require a massive change and restructuring to throw off the shackles of that legacy and to bring up peoples lives again.

There was a good argument for the tactical vote a while back, where one term Tory, one term Labour and so forth meant that neither one of them had enough time to things over, but had enough time to keep each others policies on track as a kind of slow moderating influence. But alas typical British voting trends tend to be a continuous and almost blind vote for the current party until we're sick of them, and by that point they've got complacent in government and so have messed around far more than they would have otherwise (The chances of being kicked out every election by the opposition also would make sure there more attentive to the affects of their policies in regards to the 'mob' as the Tories seem to call us).

Of course this would require a massive effort on the electorate, and simply i don't think it would work realistically, but there needs to be a political shake-up somehow. Alas the only current option with any real relevance seems to UKIP for the UK general elections...

..and that party and their economic policies i fear more than any other.

The Greens could potentially steal the Liberals former voters if they actually got off their high horses and started making general policies instead of being a one issue kind of party. But until something like this happens, we're stuck with the gruesome twosome- One lot who messed the economy up, the other lot, who continued the trend trying to 'fix it' and also incidentally seems to hold most of the electorate in contempt.

[Denny Crane!]

Grrr I wanted to get to that post on immigration with you dante but lets pick the most important fights and this is one of them. (fight may be a bit strong but lets see).

So you say it is cuts that hit them that hard? Which cuts? Which specifically? That drove this change that wouldn't have happened already?

You see my friend I do declare I detect a distinguishable pro-labour tinge on your viewpoints.

Let me examine what possible could have caused a food bank crisis that has...and I can pull sources as well though I don't think I need to...of people on work needing these banks is increased energy costs, increased food costs, increased travel costs and increased costs that aren't recognised by an inflation in wages.

So let me ask you truly, is it all benefit people suffering benefit cuts that need food banks???? No its a broad cross section suffering from the last 30 years of unrestrained corpratism and energy costs. Tell me it is just benefits people...and even if it was are you seriously telling me that rents shouldn't have been capped? I would agree the bedroom cap is stupid but tell me what else you would scrap? Tell me which benefit cut you would have reversed?

I really want to hear from labour about their alternates, but specifically right here I'd like to hear solutions to reduce foodbanks, right now.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Grrr I wanted to get to that post on immigration with you dante but lets pick the most important fights and this is one of them. (fight may be a bit strong but lets see).

Haha its quite alright, i always appreciate our discussions/wars Denny. Allon-sy then!

You see my friend I do declare I detect a distinguishable pro-labour tinge on your viewpoints.

Well, i am Scottish after all! But seriously, i don't know as your about to see, i wouldn't exactly call myself a Labour fan. It's more i'm so shocked by the Tory attitudes to such things in the modern day. I have no idea how they thought that would be acceptable.

So you say it is cuts that hit them that hard? Which cuts? Which specifically? That drove this change that wouldn't have happened already?

Let me examine what possible could have caused a food bank crisis that has...and I can pull sources as well though I don't think I need to...of people on work needing these banks is increased energy costs, increased food costs, increased travel costs and increased costs that aren't recognised by an inflation in wages.

Well to be fair, the main part is actually the 'recovery' itself of our economy. You must see to Denny that the Conservative crowing over their creation of 'jobs' is premature. In fact what they've done is get people off one sort of benefit and onto another. The jobs that are being created seem to be typically low paying, un-secure, and worse in some cases 0 hours. But of course, people on these count as employed, so it makes the government figures look good, and the 'recovery' happen (Notice from our discussions in previous threads. i'm actually coming round more to your way of viewing things it seems!), and yet all the while we have living standards falling, bills rising (as you've rightly pointed out another issue) and benefits being cut left, right and center.

Now i agree with the premise, the benefit system left over from Labour was a sprawling mess, easy to abuse and allowing people to live far better than if they were in a full time job (i'm sure we all remember those stories being run). But the Tories have gone in with their typical out of touch ideals and bluntly sheared the system to pieces, with an eye that universal credit will patch it up kind of alright.

I would say also, when i say benefits, i'm also talking about benefits for people already in work, tax credits, child benefit etc. All have seen a cut.

Worst of all too, is what the Tories have done to the care-industry for learning disabled adults and Children. They actually god damn privatized it... which while great for the economy, standards of care and living have seen a huge drop. I won't use anecdotal evidence as again it's opinion based and un-soureable, but i will say my other half works 'full time' in the a day care center for Adult learning disabilities (funny that it's full time but also on a '0 hours basis...') and she's experienced from frighting issues with that industry now it's privatized. Also the councils basically dumped the adult learners, and many were simply wandering around alone in the day.

So while i do actually agree with you that wages and the soaring cost of living are the main causes, we can't out of hand discount the benefit cuts, and also the tax-credit revamps which have taken place. Camerons idea of 'Big Society' was quite literally a way to offload all government responsibility (and as such finances) of the care of it's people onto each other...and it hasn't really worked...at all. This has contributed into Charities taking up the slack, and of course an organisation based upon voluntary aid and donations despite the best intentions, don't tend to be as effective as government led intervention. Hence why i'd so there is no reason why people should have to use such charity aids as food banks. The government should not have let it get to that stage in the first place, they should have attempted to correct the many flaws first.

In answer to your question about the benefits system (And this is where i think i diverge from being Labour tinged), I would have scrapped it all. That alone will probably get me flak on these forums! If not that, but what happens next- Replaced in from the ground up, not in the half-cut skeleton it's becoming (As you said, seriously the Bed-room tax!?). I would have tried something which i don't think has happened before.

I'd streamline the benefits system, so that instead of multiple payments (or singular) for varying disabilities that can overlap, be taxed whatever. I'd give the claimee (after they went through the application process, complete with the usual proof of unemployment/ doctoral evidence for all medical claims) a government credit card.

It would be capped at roughly the necessary standard of living in regards to living costs and inflation per week, and be topped up electronically every week. Thus allowing payment for food, bills, living etc.

Of course someone out of work will receive less than someone permanently on benefits (Say a learning disabled adult) as the latter its their life line- and so should receive more to be able to do some nice things that improve their quality of life, i.e. disposable income to go places. The amount will depend upon their application.

Now the weekly top ups do stack- so it encourages sensible use of the card in the circumstances people find themselves. Thus teaching people about sustainable living (we have a huge problem i think you'll agree before the crisis- people on benefits running out, buying huge tvs etc and during- the loan culture etc). What's more, for the vast majority of people of benefits who can/will be made to go back to work- the extra incentive to find work and use the card wisely is, that much in the same manner as a tuition fee, you have to pay it back to the government!

So if someone who was previously unemployed and on the card, spent wisely for the 4 weeks he was on it, he'll only have to pay back that amount, in a percentage of his next few paychecks (of course he can choose to pay it back in one go). Where as an idiot who went crazy, consistently living the 'high life' will find they have far more to pay back over a longer time.

Of course people who rely on the card for their living (i.e. permanently unable to find work) won't have to pay it back, and thus will be like the benefits of now.

I'm not sure as yet if charging interest would be a good idea or not. And as you can see there are some key holes in my idea that i need to work around. But i believe it would have the positive benefits over the current system, for both the government and the claimants. (It also is a form of quantitative easing if you think about it, and thus good for the economy). Don't slaughter me too harshly here! It is one of those things that bored, dreamy students come up with when we're still liberal in outlook!

But beyond this as your quite right in saying that the standard of living is too high, i'd like to see the government try and actively either encourage and foster competition in the private sectors (especially the energy industry) as this will typically be to the benefit of consumers, but also they need to start really coming down on these corporations. Possibly penalizing them if they raise their prices unfairly (as the energy companies have done) beyond the actual rate of inflation.

Also a huge thing that needs to happen, as we've spoke of before the economy needs desperately to be restructured. Economic growth on the backs of what is basically 3rd world labor is no growth at all. Indeed it will cause problems later down the line as all these poorly paid and unsecured jobs which have contributed largely to the fall in unemployment will not allow families to meet the soaring prices (as on the surface growths happening right? So interest rates can go up) also we may see another crash if then say these people lose their hours or jobs due to a worsening of the global economy (which may happen in January i believe as the US gets bogged down in its budget crisis potentially once more).

Economic growth, that families can't feel, there's no point. Also it's not then sustainable. What the government should be doing is looking to create sustainable careers. Not just unsecured low-paid job. A sustainable careers, also has the advantages not just for the citizens involved, but also the government and the economy will be better off- greater and higher tax base, a person who will actively spend back into the economy with confidence, thus sustainable growth achieved). A big part of this will be when the government grows some balls and bans 0 hour contracts outright forcing firms to actually take the time to create part-time or full time places.

Yes this will mean unemployment rises again in the short term, but in the mid-long term it will solve the issue partly with the discrepancy between these poorly paid jobs and living standards, it will also create more real jobs for people who will then have the confidence to properly start contributing to the internal economy. Thus creating more real jobs and so on.

The governments current plans are half-arsed and will not work for us long term. But then again, the Tories always where about being just for big business. In which case the current system is a god send.

Anyway back on to the topic;

I really want to hear from labour about their alternates, but specifically right here I'd like to hear solutions to reduce foodbanks, right now.

This honestly is something i'd like to hear, as currently all the things we've discussed here just arn't being said. Hence my distaste for Labour too, its all very well for the two big parties to go back and forth, by neither offer real solutions... i mean Ian Duncan Smith sneaking off early!? It's his god damn issue to solve... But indeed Labour are quiet on what to do also. As an opposition their kind of rubbish. Surely now would be the time to unveil a comprehensive counter proposal and then run with it till next the election keeping it in the public eye.... apparently not.