Artillery?

**Snipafist** · September 30, 2006, 02:41 AM

While I've slowly but surely come to use a little artillery in RTW, I don't find it terribly useful. While there are definite advantages to building up stables and barracks through the whole game, you can get your archery ranges up to archers and just stop there and still be just fine. The main issue, I believe, is speed on the campaign map. Artillery slows down your stacks pretty drastically. And while it's nice (with ballistae and onagers) to be able to bust city walls the moment you get there, it takes you longer to get there, saving you no time (or even wasting time for a long trek to the enemy city). I've found artillery really only handy for defending static positions, attacking cities that are very close together (see: Greece), and assaulting from boats (in which case the artillery's slower movement is a non-factor).

And then you get down to the difficulties in actually using artillery. Onagers are nice (if incredibly inaccurate against troops) in that they have a curved trajectory, so you can screen them with your troops. Barring a convienently-placed hill, the other ballistae-based weapons are all flat trajectories, so they'll hit any intervening friendly troops instead of the enemy. This can make them a little hard to guard effectively. They're also slow in battle (obviously), so they're best used for defensive positions or taking enemy static positions (cities, forts, etc.). It seems for all the trouble, you're almost always better off with a unit of archers or peltasts instead.

So what do you think? Do you use artillery regularly? How do you make it worthwhile? I was considering modding the game slightly to make artillery move at the same speed as infantry on the campaign map (ostensibly via ox/horse/donkey/mule-drawn carriages and the like, just like in real classical history). Do you think this would reccomend its use? Or would you reccomend something else? Lord knows I'd like to be able to include some Scorpions with my Legions, but at the moment I can't really do it in good conscience.

**Legionary Jezza** · September 30, 2006, 03:03 AM

Well they are good for quick city taking's instead of waiting turns for siege equipment you can just assault them.

**Spart** · September 30, 2006, 03:04 AM

I use only onagers, even in field battles. I don't think ballistas and scorpions are worth money, since they can kill only few enemies before they come too close. Once I used ballistas against a friend in multiplayer though. I knew he was going to use elephants, and so hi did. Just fired a few rounds and they were fleeing. Sometimes ballistas can be used against chariots and city gates too. Or in vanilla, against armoured hoplites, they didn't seem to care about normal arrows..
But usually just onagers. Not heavy onagers, too expensive and not any better than normal ones afterall..
Maybe ballistas and scorpions could be slightly adjusted, they're no use against large, attacking army, I think.

**Legionary Jezza** · September 30, 2006, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by Spartacus(FIN)

But usually just onagers. Not heavy onagers, too expensive and not any better than normal ones afterall.

Well actully the heavy onagers have more range IMO so you can more hit off at the enemy especially when they are in packs you can seriously hurt them I know this from playing online against noobs lol.

**Spart** · September 30, 2006, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Hitman Blood Money

Well actully the heavy onagers have more range IMO so you can more hit off at the enemy especially when they are in packs you can seriously hurt them I know this from playing online against noobs lol.

Yeah, but don't they have slower firing rate? Also recruit time is two turns so.. Not worth it in campaign. In custom battles then, maybe.
And yes, onagers too are good against elephants, but you need to be lucky enough to hit them. Kind of risky. One flaming ammo usually routs them.

**Casius Cherea** · September 30, 2006, 05:15 AM

I use balistas both, onagers and scorpions. Balistas are first siege weapon thats allows you destroy walls and gates, when i get to onagers i use onagers instead of balista. Balista has little use other than sieging. Onagers are very useful in non siege battles. They are inacurate only on flame ammo, when you are defending and got good positionn (eg. on hill or defending bridge) onagers use all ammo and some percent of it kills a lot of enemy troops. When you are attacinkg it is good way to lure enemy into suicidal attack

, or shot 'em when they are stationary

.
Scorpions are inefective against walls etc. but have good fire rate and can make little slaughter to. When you are siegieng advanced walls or higher in towers are scorpions. I finally found scorpions usefull when i was siegieng rome and my tower wipe out mirmillo gladiator (huge scale) before reaching wall.
To all this work properly I advice you to change in export_descr_unit.txt following line in artillery units

soldier roman_crew, 12, 2, 0.8 -----> soldier roman_crew, 24, 4, 0.8

This makes four artillery per unit, I make this for all greek and roman faction
You have to rise upkeep and cost of unit because AI get mad about this and with standard costs you may encounter full stack of onagers.
I think its ever more realistic because you dont waste unit slots and:
"The estimates regarding the numbers of these machines which a legion would have to draw on are wide-ranging.
One one hand it is said that, each legion had ten onagri, one for each cohort. Apart from this each century was also allocated a ballista (most likely of the scorpion or carro-ballista variety)." quote from http://www.roman-empire.net/army/leg-siege.html
have a nice

**carl-the-conqueror** · September 30, 2006, 03:08 AM

they are alright, IF you can get them to hit elephants, but that is about it

**Ciaran S** · September 30, 2006, 06:20 AM

I tend to use artillery quite a lot, especially Onagers, usually two to three units in an army. They´re your friend against Hordes in BI, especially when you´re defending a bridge. They´re also usefull when attacking cities, to knock down the auto-fire towers and gate houses.

**Korinthos Hoplites** · September 30, 2006, 06:35 AM

I find onagers VERY useful against stone defences and large armies, I just unleash hell on the advancing enemy with fire boulders.
When the army arrives it's so shrinked and demoralised that I have no trouble routing them...
Against smaller armies I disable fire ammo, against cavalry I place the onagers near the red line and then hit withdraw...

**StickShift** · September 30, 2006, 07:17 PM

i usually onagers in the campaign as they can really wreak a good deal of havoc on massed enemy troops, especially armored ones. for example, when the roman civil war broke out in my brutii campaign the julii were on the receiving end of many a firepot. being able to smash walls isn't that important to me unless their wooden. i usually wait for ladders/seige towers against stone ones.

as for ballistas and scorpians, i only use em when the senate gives them to me. as a result, when i'm not playing as the romans, rarely use ballistas or scorpians.

on a side note, does anyone else think repeating ballistas are a waste? their short range and poor accuracy don't seem to make up for their higher rate of fire to me at least.

**Korinthos Hoplites** · September 30, 2006, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by StickShift

on a side note, does anyone else think repeating ballistas are a waste? their short range and poor accuracy don't seem to make up for their higher rate of fire to me at least.

Yes, they are pretty useless. i've tried them a couple of times to test and I found normal balistas superior. Also, I don't think the tag 'Repeating' fits with them, their rate of fire isn't very improved... :hmmm: