As Nelson Mandela dies UK sleep walks into Apartheid - but its religion so its OK!!!!

[Denny Crane!]

Deliberately imflammatory title because I shall enjoy the fun it causes, yet really it is (and isn't) true. This comes from religion or the culture of the religion whichever you choose to believe or a synthesis of the two.

So essentially the story is that in the UK Islamic scholars, those protagonists of human rights, have been requesting that women are not associated with men whilst listening to education and our stalwart universities have been conceding to their requests.

Universities UK, the organisation which represents vice-chancellors, was widely condemned last month when it said Muslim societies, and other groups, were entitled to keep men and women separate at public meetings on British campuses.
One organisation said it is setting up “segregation busting” teams which will deliberately disrupt meetings which attempt to enforce separate seating areas for men and women.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission is also reviewing the legal position of University UK’s guidelines to establish whether they break the law.
The National Union of Students has stopped short of full condemnation but said it does not endorse “enforced segregation” and would take steps to prevent it taking place.

Cameron, our HEROIC leader, stepped into the fray:

"He does not believe that guest speakers should be allowed to address segregated audiences, so he believes that Universities UK should urgently review its guidance," said the spokesman

The coward.

Let me say this.

I will walk into a university tomorrow. I will say I have a lecture to give. I will say that during that speech I will request politely...because I am such a NICE RESPECTFUL GUY that all BLACK and JEWS do not sit with the other people because it is just simply a polite request that complies with my beliefs.

What is wrong with me making polite requests that all BLACK and JEWISH people don't sit with others while I speak?

What is wrong with me merely requesting and not forcing, not in this country anyway, that all BLACK and JEWISH people wear markers/certain clothing because it would be free will and structural oppression doesn't exist. It is obviously free choice. People can make free choice and we all know that free will is supreme and society has no effect on individuals and choices they make. Because we are that smart.

I mean its all totally innocent.

.

[conon394]

These are Public Universities correct they receive government funding - they are not explicitly say the private Islamic University of Essex?

[Denny Crane!]

[Denny Crane!]

Yeah and they are until presently endorsing segregation.

State sanctioned public segregation.

[conon394]

Sad to hear then. I don't see any place for that kind of thing at a public institution given it violates the broad norm(s) of UK society as I understand them (at least I never ran into a segregated pub/event/hotel etc in London...). Minorities have rights but they don't get the right to be dictators.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Being a student i find this idea abhorrent that certain society groups in University are allowed to do such things. Though i would point out, it's not as if such groups are going to be popular by any means. If say the local War-hammer club tried it (Not that i've ever been... and not that their are really many women at all there... what..so...ever *sigh*) i can see basically their members given up going, as very few people would be interested in condoning such action. So if these clubs want to become ghost towns, let them.

Though the main thing here seems to be the certain Islamic societies, i'm not sure how popular they are in the first place, nor indeed if any female students would be interested in attending such societies with these rules, considering most women at university are educated, aware and independent.

Though saying all this, it's a disgrace that the University board has condoned such societies as being ok.

[Simon Cashmere]

The reason Islamic groups get away with this, is because the authorities are *terrified* of what might happen if they stand up to them. Craven cowards. The Neville Chamberlain school of Appeasement, loads and loads and loads of appeasement at every single outrage.

[Denny Crane!]

Being a student i find this idea abhorrent that certain society groups in University are allowed to do such things. Though i would point out, it's not as if such groups are going to be popular by any means. If say the local War-hammer club tried it (Not that i've ever been... and not that their are really many women at all there... what..so...ever *sigh*)

1. Don't dis warhammer. I will find and kill you.

2. Don't assume they aren't popular regrettably. Don't assume we have a small muslim society*

*you think 10% of our population is small, OK mate lets have 50% oppression of 3 million people? That OK? NO? Perhaps a smaller number of oppression is OK? What if it was only university students, what if it was only a fraction of those?

Tiny number of people. So what the hell does it matter if only 10000 blacks are oppressed in the UK, what the hell does it matter if only 5000 homosexuals are oppressed in the UK, what the hell does it matter if only 1000 jews are oppressed in the uK?

Tell me a number Dante sufficient to get you annoyed? The fact that the numbers may be small are sufficient for you? What about the fact that it transcends and this is just a symptom of underlying trends of Islamic culture in the UK?


i can see basically their members given up going, as very few people would be interested in condoning such action. So if these clubs want to become ghost towns, let them.

Though the main thing here seems to be the certain Islamic societies, i'm not sure how popular they are in the first place, nor indeed if any female students would be interested in attending such societies with these rules, considering most women at university are educated, aware and independent.

Though saying all this, it's a disgrace that the University board has condoned such societies as being ok.[/QUOTE]

The reason Islamic groups get away with this, is because the authorities are *terrified* of what might happen if they stand up to them. Craven cowards. The Neville Chamberlain school of Appeasement, loads and loads and loads of appeasement at every single outrage.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

1. Don't dis warhammer. I will find and kill you.

2. Don't assume they aren't popular regrettably. Don't assume we have a small muslim society*

*you think 10% of our population is small, OK mate lets have 50% oppression of 3 million people? That OK? NO? Perhaps a smaller number of oppression is OK? What if it was only university students, what if it was only a fraction of those?

Tiny number of people. So what the hell does it matter if only 10000 blacks are oppressed in the UK, what the hell does it matter if only 5000 homosexuals are oppressed in the UK, what the hell does it matter if only 1000 jews are oppressed in the uK?

Tell me a number Dante sufficient to get you annoyed? The fact that the numbers may be small are sufficient for you? What about the fact that it transcends and this is just a symptom of underlying trends of Islamic culture in the UK?


i can see basically their members given up going, as very few people would be interested in condoning such action. So if these clubs want to become ghost towns, let them.

Though the main thing here seems to be the certain Islamic societies, i'm not sure how popular they are in the first place, nor indeed if any female students would be interested in attending such societies with these rules, considering most women at university are educated, aware and independent.

Though saying all this, it's a disgrace that the University board has condoned such societies as being ok.

[/QUOTE]

Haha don't worry, i'm rather a Warhammer fanatic, something frequently used against me! Though it's how i actually met my current girlfriend (thank god she puts up with me). But anyway, to your points,

Oh don't get me wrong my friend, i do find it abhorrent. And am shocked that this could even be an issue in a First world western democracy. I was merely musing as to surely this rule is self defeating as any groups backward or stupid enough to try and enforce such segregation arn't going to be 'groups' for long, they'll kill what attendance they have left.

I'm still rather in shock that the god damn Uni bodies would allow this. I'm actually for once hoping the EU will step in and start cracking heads in lieu of this discrimination and the governments rather weak come-back.

[mongrel]

The reason Islamic groups get away with this, is because the authorities are *terrified* of what might happen if they stand up to them. Craven cowards. The Neville Chamberlain school of Appeasement, loads and loads and loads of appeasement at every single outrage.

Wrong on so many levels. Perhaps a Roman banquet might console you.

It is a university body seeking this advice, not Islamic groups as such.

This body is clearly more terrified of a democratically elected prime minister and legal action than some hypothetical Muslim group , seeing that their advice has been withdrawn.


http://www.theguardian.com/education...er-segregation

The body that represents Britain's universities has withdrawn guidance on the gender segregation of audiences in lectures and debates after an intervention from David Cameron.

Universities UK (UUK) said on Fridaythat the controversial policy which allowed the voluntary separation of men and women at events such as lectures on Islam by visiting speakers was being dropped pending a review.

The Education Secretary called for the policy to be withdrawn. On Friday I might add. It is quite evident the government did not sanction the policy.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...er-segregation

This is what the Equality and Human Rights Commission says:

“Clearly a university like any other institution is entitled to provide services and facilities separately by gender where appropriate and lawful for example, accommodation, sports and targeted welfare provision. It is also entirely permissible for a university or other organisation to have private members clubs for a single sex.


“Universities can also provide facilities for religious meetings and associations based on faith, as in the rest of society. Equality law permits gender segregation in premises that are permanently or temporarily being used for the purposes of an organised religion where its doctrines require it.


“However, in an academic meeting or in a lecture open to the public it is not, in the Commission’s view, permissible to segregate by gender.


“The UUK’s guidance accepts that the initial question is whether that segregation is discriminatory and concludes that the imposition of segregated seating in certain circumstances could be permissible. The guidance also gives the impression that the right to manifest or express a religious belief should be balanced against the right not to be discriminated against.


“We think the guidance could be clearer on what the legal framework lays down on these issues to avoid any risk of misrepresenting the legal position. UUK has now written to the Commission and we have agreed that we will work with UUK to ensure that their guidance and our guidance are consistent and clear.”

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/n...r-segregation/

So the government doesn't approve and the body responsible for equality matters says the guidance is unlawful. The guidance was therefore withdrawn. Yet Denny opens the thread he following day suggesting the policy is being implemented.

Denny, you posted your thread after this decision to drop the advice was made was made. You said that the state sanctions this aborted policy, when clearly the EHRC does not and neither does the PM. Did you do a fact-check before posting? You ought to know that educational establishments are subject to the Equality Act, so why did you not check whether someone had pointed this out?
And why did you mention religion? No Christian, Jewish, Hindhu, Buddhist or Jedi interests are involved here.

I'm still rather in shock that the god damn Uni bodies would allow this. I'm actually for once hoping the EU will step in and start cracking heads in lieu of this discrimination and the governments rather weak come-back.

It is a shame Denny misled the forum, by not checking all the facts, or worse not sharing the facts with us, but the opening part of your sentence I agree with. If a University body, of all entities, cannot cannot obtain decent legal advice on the simplest of legal matters, one has to despair.

Ban Islam... Clearly there is a conflict between some civil rights and others. You have to choose the right one. Do you humor the actual segregation of men and women or the made up fantasies which inspire it?

I don't see how banning Islam in some public outlets would be wrong.

Freedom of religion is a civil right.We established this in 1829. I would also like to think that we worked out in 1945 what happens when the state decides to liquidate a specific religion. It seems that you too have been misled into thinking that English law would not interfere with these daft proposals. That is the trouble with these threads, some people believe anything said to them, and are prompted to write uninformed trash , such as your post, without thinking what the true position is.

[conon394]

sorry OT

The Neville Chamberlain school of Appeasement

That is so not fair to Neville. I hate this analogy its completely false. Neither the UK or France were ready for war and Hitler's aims were not understood. There a lot sympathy still for Germany that the WW1 settlement was too harsh and the US was still locked in isolationism. The French would never have declared war at the time - Munich and the results provided Chamberlain with the needed proof to go to war over Poland and alter Public opinion in the US and France.

[Denny Crane!]

Logically what you said is fine but it turns out that bias and patriarchy can be propagated and disseminated aggressively and it WORKS. It doesn't fail and it doesn't diminish in liberal societies. In fact oddly enough Islamic fanaticism seems to find in some ways more of a home here than in more oppressive regimes. Did you listen to apostasy in the UK on Radio 4?

Unfortunately the idea that it will fail in favour of the bold presentation of rational ideas is false.

It turns out structural oppression and familal indoctrination trumps all:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03jb3n5

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Logically what you said is fine but it turns out that bias and patriarchy can be propagated and disseminated aggressively and it WORKS. It doesn't fail and it doesn't diminish in liberal societies. In fact oddly enough Islamic fanaticism seems to find in some ways more of a home here than in more oppressive regimes. Did you listen to apostasy in the UK on Radio 4?

Unfortunately the idea that it will fail in favour of the bold presentation of rational ideas is false.

It turns out structural oppression and familal indoctrination trumps all:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03jb3n5

I didn't actually my friend, will give it a look up on I-player if it's still around. I can see the point your making, and indeed in part agree (though i'm still shocked that for some reason the UK's political establishment has taken such a damn tepid approach).

Again true, i wish it would fail in the face of logic and liberal society. But again, these same mechanisms do indeed allow idiots to propogate their view points freely, much like in this this case*

Will have a listen to the link when i get back in my friend!

*As an aside, it's also why i seriously do not agree with televised debates for elections- It turns it into a popularity contest of who's the best speaking for the masses, and thus makes up the public's mind over say actually taking into account party policies etc.

[Simon Cashmere]

That is so not fair to Neville. I hate this analogy its completely false. Neither the UK or France were ready for war and Hitler's aims were not understood.

He wrote a book about what his aims were, and Winston Churchill read it. He said exactly what he was doing and why. Churchill was put out to pasture though as a warmonger, hatemonger, fearmonger, alarmist, during the 1930s when he tried to warn against fascism. Chamberlain was a muppet of the highest order who got played by Hitler.

The same is true of Islam, in every single place it has ever been since the time of Mohammed, and all their books, and numerous pronouncements in sermons and online support this. But people instead choose to ignore all of this, and, all of the evidence of Islamic scripture being used to justify innumerable murder mayhem and violence, and take George Bush's word for it 'Religion of Peace.' Because it is far easier to believe a comforting lie, than to believe a horrible truth. And people who commit murder and mayhem and violence in the name of Islam or who demand it move freely in the Islamic community, they are not marginalised or ostracised - that should give you some idea of where there views in fact sit.

[ivan_the_terrible]

He wrote a book about what his aims were, and Winston Churchill read it. He said exactly what he was doing and why. Churchill was put out to pasture though as a warmonger, hatemonger, fearmonger, alarmist, during the 1930s when he tried to warn against fascism. Chamberlain was a muppet of the highest order who got played by Hitler.

The same is true of Islam, in every single place it has ever been since the time of Mohammed, and all their books, and numerous pronouncements in sermons and online support this. But people instead choose to ignore all of this, and, all of the evidence of Islamic scripture being used to justify innumerable murder mayhem and violence, and take George Bush's word for it 'Religion of Peace.' Because it is far easier to believe a comforting lie, than to believe a horrible truth. And people who commit murder and mayhem and violence in the name of Islam or who demand it move freely in the Islamic community, they are not marginalised or ostracised - that should give you some idea of where there views in fact sit.

Lol 'innumerable murder mayhem and violence since the time of Mohammed'.

[Roma_Victrix]

I go to school in Northern Ireland, getting a master's degree, and I've realized that my group of friends - when sitting in class, at the pub, or elsewhere - somehow manages to segregate itself along lines of gender. I pointed this out to them and told them they were living under sharia law, at which point they had a good laugh.

That being said, I agree with the OP that societal leaders who advocate this stuff are bound to make a huge impact on society as a whole. It's a sad fact, but people really are lemmings and I wouldn't be surprised if there was an evolutionary ancestor between our two species.



I think that's why cynical people like Dick Cheney are able to gain so much power. They realize just who they are ruling over.

[Col. Tartleton]

Ban Islam... Clearly there is a conflict between some civil rights and others. You have to choose the right one. Do you humor the actual segregation of men and women or the made up fantasies which inspire it?

I don't see how banning Islam in some public outlets would be wrong.

[Denny Crane!]

I erred only in saying state sanctioned in a later post which of course it is not. But in fact I was discussing what HAS been happening not simply the seeking of advice this HAS happened.

Thank god we have more respect for equal rights in this country.

[mongrel]

I erred only in saying state sanctioned in a later post which of course it is not. But in fact I was discussing what HAS been happening not simply the seeking of advice this HAS happened.

Thank god we have more respect for equal rights in this country.

The current event, and by that I mean the event at the time the OP was created can be summarized thus:

A University representative body floated the idea of devising a policy for the hypothetical possibility for a request for a Muslim, not Christian , Buddhist or Jedi, mind you, to separate people by gender.

As a public body, they should have known that this would be illegal, and indeed the EHRC said so. The Prime Minister does not approve of this at all,the Educational Secretary, who I would have though had the final say on this, told the body to drop it. In fact he says it was a disgrace.



This follows a lecture at UCL in March were a speaker refused to participate unless females sat in separate areas. The result, an investigation by UCL and

University College London took the action against the Islamic Education and Research Academy (iERA) after concluding that it had attempted to enforce segregation at the debate on 9 March.

"Islam or Atheism: Which Makes More Sense?" featured Prof Lawrence Krauss, an eminent atheist, and Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a lecturer on Islam. When Krauss saw people being moved from their seats, he said he would not speak at an event that was segregated and walked out to cheers and boos from the audience. An organiser pursued him and said segregation would be abandoned.

UCL said in a statement: "We do not allow enforced segregation on any grounds [but] it now appears that, despite our clear instructions, attempts were made to enforce segregation at the meeting.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...er-segregation

I think that covered what had happened.

All this information was available to you prior to posting , yet you are saying that the UK is sleep walking into Apartheid? And you used the R word , when most religious people had no interest in the matter because they are not Muslims, let alone radical ones?

You have utterly misled the forum for reasons I cannot comprehend and encouraged people such as Cashmere to dust off the old Eurabia bollocks. Not a proud day for TWC for sure.

[Thorn777]

I wonder how many Alpha Omega student societies have women aboard? Actually why wonder when you also have islamic societies and can take a jab at religions. At least the Alpha Omegas's are slinging dick with females after turning them usually into a narcoleptic state.