Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu described the deportation of Armenians under the Ottoman empire as "inhumane"!!..

[The Noble Lord]

http://news.yahoo.com/deportation-ar...152528124.html

Wow, never believed that I would hear something like this from Davutoglu, but it's a huge step in right direction. And that right direction is
reconciliation and normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia and also an apology from the Turkish government for the Genocide
of 1915!! It is obvious that Davutoglu is using diplomatic language as any good diplomat but even to say this was unthinkable in modern Turkey
until recently.

What Davutoglu said was that Ottoman deportations of Armenians were inhumane and brutal and he couldn't say Genocidal but everyone got the
point. Right step in a right direction for modern Turkey, it's time to step out of the state of denial and accept historical facts!!

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Or he actually just meant deportation and not extermination.

[Odenat]

Armenian and Turkish relations are bad but the issue is not what happened at 1915. It's because Armenians invaded 20% of Azerbaijan and made an ethnic cleansing there at 1993.

Until the Azeri land is liberated, no chance that the relations will improve. Actually, this is exactly what Davutoglu requested from Erivan during the visit.

[nemgod]

Armenian and Turkish relations are bad but the issue is not what happened at 1915. It's because Armenians invaded 20% of Azerbaijan and made an ethnic cleansing there at 1993.

Until the Azeri land is liberated, no chance that the relations will improve. Actually, this is exactly what Davutoglu requested from Erivan during the visit.

Let's ignore that the area was 90% Armenian in the first place when it came to demographics. That during the last days of the USSR the Azeri's were running Azeri SSR state sponsored attacks on Armenians in Baku and all other areas of the Azeri areas, making it right that the Armenians defend themselves and take the lands which they are the overwhelming majority from a state that would not only not guarantee their safety, but also
help in the abuse of the Armenians.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

If they were only deported how come so many died.Say it now Turkey it was genocide.

[Col. Tartleton]

If they were only deported how come so many died.Say it now Turkey it was genocide.

No, let's not ask them, because then the Indians might think the Trail of Tears was a Genocide.

I know you're sort of Irish and the genocide claim is fun to throw around, but if you're going to be American there are some things you never talk about...

[Roma_Victrix]

No, let's not ask them, because then the Indians might think the Trail of Tears was a Genocide.

I know you're sort of Irish and the genocide claim is fun to throw around, but if you're going to be American there are some things you never talk about...

Jackson's Indian Removal Act of 1830 obviously didn't involve lining Native Americans up, shooting them in the head, and tossing their bodies into ditches, but many died from sickness, starvation, and exposure to the elements spurred by the long journey to new Indian territories in what is now Oklahoma. I'd suppose you'd call it an "ethnic cleansing" if not a genocide. The removal of Armenians from the late Ottoman Empire and the forced marches into the Syrian desert are to be labeled as an ethnic cleansing, because it sure cleaned the streets of Istanbul and other cities of non-Turkish Armenians!

[Manuel I Komnenos]

It's rather ridiculous to argue that forcibly removing someone from his place to another one, in despicable conditions is not a genocide because it was not "intended". When as a state, you choose to deport your own citizens to another area and most of them die in the process, yes, indeed it's a genocide.

[Col. Tartleton]

It's rather ridiculous to argue that forcibly removing someone from his place to another one, in despicable conditions is not a genocide because it was not "intended". When as a state, you choose to deport your own citizens to another area and most of them die in the process, yes, indeed it's a genocide.

No because genocide requires intent. You can't accidentally wipe out an ethnicity and call it a genocide.

Besides, it's never worked. The holocaust failed. It was only attempted genocide. Or a series of successful localized genocides with some unsuccessful ones.

Other than the new world disease shock and a few instances of isolated islanders or the like getting wiped out, has there ever been a successful genocide? That is to say the killing of entire ethnic groups? I doubt it.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

No because genocide requires intent. You can't accidentally wipe out an ethnicity and call it a genocide.

Accidentally? These people either perished in concentration camps, or on their way to them, while traversing through deserts and snowy mountains. I fail to see the difference between shooting them in the head and doing what they did. It's just that the Ottomans didn't have a certain policy of extermination like the Germans had for the Jews, they were just interested to remove the Armenians from valued areas. They didn't give a crap whether they'd live or die, after they were deported. This doesn't relinquish them from the responsibility of the deaths.

Besides, it's never worked. The holocaust failed. It was only attempted genocide. Or a series of successful localized genocides with some unsuccessful ones.

Do you call it a burglary only when a house is completely emptied? We're talking about millions of dead people. Sure it was successful in the areas the Nazis controlled.

So, you want us to change the definition of the word "genocide"?

I just want the Turkish state to recognize that the failure of the Ottoman authorities to ensure the safety of the Armenian population during its forceful deportation resulted in massive deaths.

[PointOfViewGun]

I just want the Turkish state to recognize that the failure of the Ottoman authorities to ensure the safety of the Armenian population during its forceful deportation resulted in massive deaths.

That's not what a genocide is though.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

That's not what a genocide is though.

It's when ethnic cleansing is carried out in massive scale and results in the death of the mass of the targeted group. It doesn't matter whether the death results from shooting, or through forced labor in concentration camps or through deportation on foot, in horrid conditions.

[Stavroforos]

People still care about this issue, for some reason.

Also, I don't know if I've ever used the word "issue" to describe trivium.

[The Noble Lord]

People still care about this issue, for some reason.

Of course that people care, even non-Armenians care and let alone people whose brethren has been decimated and annihilated in Armenian Genocide! I mean, if you really
don't care about this issue then why bother coming here and discussing it.

It was only attempted genocide. Or a series of successful localized genocides with some unsuccessful ones.

Unfortunately, the Armenian Genocide succeeded, the Ottomans and vicious and bloodthirsty Kurds successfully destroyed the Armenian population of Ottoman empire and annihilated
the Armenians in such a way that there is none left now in their ancient homeland of eastern Anatolia. There were there since the time of the Jason and the Argonauts and in 1915-1916
that was brought to a close, they were simply erased from the area, using most vicious and primitive killing techniques that haven't been seen in Europe since the time of Attila the Hun!

So yes, it was a Genocide and unfortunately very successful one.

Care to point us from where you copy pasted this OP?

Can you go to a link, it was reported by the AFP. As for the text, it's mine and not copy and pasted one!

I just want the Turkish state to recognize that the failure of the Ottoman authorities to ensure the safety of the Armenian population during its forceful deportation resulted in massive deaths.

And to accept that it was intentional removal and slaughter of everything and everybody that was Armenian. It was first organized and planned Genocide of certain group of people in
20th century! It resulted in Armenians being erased from their ancient homeland in a blink of an eye basically. There were other deportations of people during the WWI like the Russian deportations of
Jews from Lithuania and Latvia, Austro-Hungarian deportations of Italians from Istra, German deportations of Belgians, Bulgarian deportations of ethnic Greeks and Macedonians from their occupied
part of Macedonia, etc. But none of them resulted in orgy of slaughter, butchery, rape and killings that was unseen since the Dark Ages!!

The Armenian Genocide was the only "deportations" that resulted in erasing the entire people from their ancient homeland and they did it intentionally and they succeed, unfortunately!!

failure to ensure the safety of the Armenian population during its forceful deportation is not.

So-called "forceful deportation gone wrong" is just a euphemism for mass destruction of the Armenians and final solution of their question. Ever since 1894-1894 the Ottomans have been
itching to destroy the Armenians, bloodthirsty Kurds too as loyal attack dogs of Abdul Hamid. The CUP finally saw its chance in 1915 with Allied invasion of Galipolli and so-called Russian threat
which was not a threat since Russians were dug in and were on the defensive, to them Caucasus front was a sideshow and German-Austrian front was more important. So to blame it all on Russian
"invasion" and Ottoman incompetence is a ridiculous as Nazis blaming the destruction of the Jews on worldwide Jewish conspiracy and Freemasonry conspiracy to destroy Germany and make it into a slave
nation!! Nonsensical at its best.

[PointOfViewGun]

So-called "forceful deportation gone wrong" is just a euphemism for mass destruction of the Armenians and final solution of their question. Ever since 1894-1894 the Ottomans have been
itching to destroy the Armenians, bloodthirsty Kurds too as loyal attack dogs of Abdul Hamid. The CUP finally saw its chance in 1915 with Allied invasion of Galipolli and so-called Russian threat
which was not a threat since Russians were dug in and were on the defensive, to them Caucasus front was a sideshow and German-Austrian front was more important. So to blame it all on Russian
"invasion" and Ottoman incompetence is a ridiculous as Nazis blaming the destruction of the Jews on worldwide Jewish conspiracy and Freemasonry conspiracy to destroy Germany and make it into a slave
nation!! Nonsensical at its best.

I don't know why I should bother responding to your propaganda posts when all you do is deny and alter reality. Can you give me one reason?

Well, given the hilarious stubbornness of the Turkish government (and apparently some Turks in this thread) to marginalize and even deny obvious aspects of the viscous ethnic cleansing of the Armenian people from their homeland, the urge to point out the obvious parallels to other less disputed cases like the Bosnian War crimes is rather irresistible. In other words, by denying the obvious for decades, it seems the Turkish government has kept the issue alive and created its own mess.

You do realize that just because you claim something to be obvious doesn't make it so? The fact that I could create a group with many books, article, documents and studies from non-Turkish scholars (with the exception of just one) supports how the view you claim to be obvious is not that obvious.

[Lord Thesaurian]

You do realize that just because you claim something to be obvious doesn't make it so? The fact that I could create a group with many books, article, documents and studies from non-Turkish scholars (with the exception of just one) supports how the view you claim to be obvious is not that obvious.

Well, I too posted the proceedings of the Turkish post-war tribunals of four of the major perpetrators of the atrocities, as well as a mountain of evidence from third-party sources verifying the "basic" nature of various systematic actions taken by the Ottoman and CUP governments against the Armenian people that would easily pass as ethnic cleansing if not genocide. Whether the latter or the former, the point is it happened, and yes, the Turkish government was directly responsible and fully aware of the situation. Like Stav said, it happened nearly a century ago now. One would think the Turkish government would have had the sense by now to defuse the issue by saying very publicly something like, "We ed up. The ethnic cleansing perpetrated by this nation's government was horrific and inexcusable. We are ashamed and very sorry for what happened." Voila.

Instead we get this whole circus where the Turkish government is so butt-hurt a century after the fact that nation states have to waste time voting on the veracity of historical record of events, and the Turkish PM responds by making renewed threats against Armenians in Turkey - as if that's going to help the situation. It would be comical were it not such a tragic issue. So as the OP notes, things are finally moving in the right direction. What I don't understand is why the Turkish government, rather than get ahead of this issue decades ago by calling the Massacres whatever they want and apologizing, has kept the debate alive with their ridiculous theatrics. I'm simply citing very general points in the historical record and saying...Soooo....WTF? Even if going full-blown Nazi Holocaust is so out of the question here, looks a heck of alot like Bosnia to me. Can't we agree on that? And if so, why the ridiculous semantic debate?

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, I too posted the proceedings of the Turkish post-war tribunals of four of the major perpetrators of the atrocities, as well as a mountain of evidence from third-party sources verifying the "basic" nature of various systematic actions taken by the Ottoman and CUP governments against the Armenian people that would easily pass as ethnic cleansing if not genocide. Whether the latter or the former, the point is it happened, and yes, the Turkish government was directly responsible and fully aware of the situation. Like Stav said, it happened nearly a century ago now. One would think the Turkish government would have had the sense by now to defuse the issue by saying very publicly something like, "We ed up. The ethnic cleansing perpetrated by this nation's government was horrific and inexcusable. We are ashamed and very sorry for what happened." Voila.

Instead we get this whole circus where the Turkish government is so butt-hurt a century after the fact that nation states have to waste time voting on the veracity of historical record of events, and the Turkish PM responds by making renewed threats against Armenians in Turkey - as if that's going to help the situation. It would be comical were it not such a tragic issue. So as the OP notes, things are finally moving in the right direction. What I don't understand is why the Turkish government, rather than get ahead of this issue decades ago by calling the Massacres whatever they want and apologizing, has kept the debate alive with their ridiculous theatrics. I'm simply citing very general points in the historical record and saying...Soooo....WTF? Even if going full-blown Nazi Holocaust is so out of the question here, looks a heck of alot like Bosnia to me. Can't we agree on that? And if so, why the ridiculous semantic debate?

Yes, I saw your post and the links you provided. 6 to be exact. 3 from Armenians writers. I doubt you even read them. The one from SPLC uses the infamous Talat Pasha telegram as a proof for the genocide claims. These telegrams were proven to be forgeries made by a French Armenian. So, if you make such rookie mistakes then I can't really take your sources seriously.

You also exhibit confusion with basics of the case. The Turkish government cannot say what you want them to say regardless of whether they recognize it as a genocide or not. They did not exist back then. Turkey did not exist back then. They were not even alive back then.

It's funny how you downgrade to ethnic cleansing from genocide. No one, including the Turkish government, denies that an ethnic cleansing occurred. That's what a forced relocation is. They do not deny that a lot of people die (the official figure is around 600 thousand), nor do they deny that the conditions of the relocation was not deplorable. The subsequent Turkish governments, in fact, did not say or do much on the issue until 1980s, when an Armenian group, called ASALA, started targeting Turkish civilians to bring up their cause of recognition of genocide claims and Eastern Anatolia as Armenian lands. Since then, Armenian diaspora did its best to buy recognition through support, money or votes. I'd say that Erdoğan's remarks about kicking out 100 thousand Armenians living in Turkey illegally, as in he's not talking about legal ethnic Armenian citizens that number around 70 thousand and he's talking about a hypothetical case, are negligible compared to what Armenians did. I'm not sure whose butt-hurt.

So, looking at all that you said, I have to say WTF as you do and ask why have such a retarded opinion that's not based on facts?

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Instead we get this whole circus where the Turkish government is so butt-hurt a century after the fact that nation states have to waste time voting on the veracity of historical record of events, and the Turkish PM responds by making renewed threats against Armenians in Turkey - as if that's going to help the situation. It would be comical were it not such a tragic issue. So as the OP notes, things are finally moving in the right direction. What I don't understand is why the Turkish government, rather than get ahead of this issue decades ago by calling the Massacres whatever they want and apologizing, has kept the debate alive with their ridiculous theatrics. I'm simply citing very general points in the historical record and saying...Soooo....WTF? Even if going full-blown Nazi Holocaust is so out of the question here, looks a heck of alot like Bosnia to me. Can't we agree on that? And if so, why the ridiculous semantic debate?

Will Armenia recognize the genocide of Ottoman Turks from the region of Armenia and their evil efforts to kill all the Turks within their region?

[Manuel I Komnenos]

People seem to care when someone disputes the Holocaust...

[Stavroforos]

Yeah, and that is also retarded.