Is The Manipular Formation Useful?

[The Unknown General]

I've always been prone to stick with a single line of all infantry, followed with misses in the rear and cavalry on the flanks. However, seeing how Europa Barbarorum was designed to be more accurate when it comes to history, it would be only fitting to try to use historical armies and formations. I was thinking of using five hastati in the first line , five principles in the second line, five triarii in the third line, two velites in front of the first line before pulling back to the back of the second line, two equites at the flank, and one general. However, I don't see the point is using the Manipular Formation, when running the first line back behind the second line will only result in more casualties, along the fact ordering the second line to attack will only result in them throwing pila and not joining the action until the first line routs.

[Sint]

five hastati in the first line , five principles in the second line, five triarii in the third line

Using 5 triarii would be odd unless you would halve their unit size.

That's how I use them :
1 General
4-5 Hastai in the firstline
4-5 Principes in the second line
2 Triaii in the third line
1 Accensi
1 Velites
1 Eqiutes
2 Allied cavalry
Optional :
1 Pedites Extraordinarii
1 Eqvites Extraordinarii


I use the manipular Formation like this :

1.My Hastati hold the line in guard mode = They will be slowly pushed back.
2.My Pricipes advance in formation(Group Mode) until they are past the Hastati
3.My Hastati retreat when they don't fight anymore.

[The Unknown General]

Using 5 triarii would be odd unless you would halve their unit size.

That's how I use them :
1 General
4-5 Hastai in the firstline
4-5 Principes in the second line
2 Triaii in the third line
1 Accensi
1 Velites
1 Eqiutes
2 Allied cavalry
Optional :
1 Pedites Extraordinarii
1 Eqvites Extraordinarii


I use the manipular Formation like this :

1.My Hastati hold the line in guard mode = They will be slowly pushed back.
2.My Pricipes advance in formation(Group Mode) until they are past the Hastati
3.My Hastati retreat when they don't fight anymore.

Wouldn't the Pricipes have pass through the Hastati in order for Hastati to retreat behind the Pricipies, and allow the Pricipies to hold the line?

[Sint]

Wouldn't the Pricipes have pass through the Hastati in order for Hastati to retreat behind the Pricipies, and allow the Pricipies to hold the line?

Yes ,I don't order them to attack the enemy they simply advance .
Put your Pricipes in a group and let them walk through the Hastati,once they fight against the tired enemy you can pull your Hastati back.

Or you use them to flank the enemy ,that does work too.

[yuezhi]

ordering the second line to attack will only result in them throwing pila and not joining the action until the first line routs.

Try alt + right click

And maybe get some Italic allies cavalry; Romans hired whatever auxilia/mercenaries they deemed useful. IMO equites are only good against other cavalry. Italic cavalry have far more punch in their charge.

[Ownager]

I used the Manipular formation many times. Mostly against barbarians. My advice, don't. The Hastati get so chewed up that I have to import them over 5 provinces to get a strong army. I usually used 8, but they get destroyed. I do like to role play in that formation.

[Ownager]

I just allow the Principes to back up the Hastati in the line. Triarii move forward and hold flanks. Cavalry surrounds Makedonian style.

[Ryoga84]

I halve the Triari size and use:

3 Hastati
3 Principes
3 Triari
1 Accensi
1 Rorari/Velites
0-1 General
1 Roman Equites
0-1 cavalry auxilia (usually italic of greek)
5-6 infantry auxilia, both close-quarters and archers/slingers (samnites count as auxilia, but I use a great deal of Gaemilie Liguriae around the Alps, Gaeroas in Gaul, Hoplite in Greece and Iberian spearmen/Ilergetean soldiers in Iberia)

[The Unknown General]

I halve the Triari size and use:

3 Hastati
3 Principes
3 Triari
1 Accensi
1 Rorari/Velites
0-1 General
1 Roman Equites
0-1 cavalry auxilia (usually italic of greek)
5-6 infantry auxilia, both close-quarters and archers/slingers (samnites count as auxilia, but I use a great deal of Gaemilie Liguriae around the Alps, Gaeroas in Gaul, Hoplite in Greece and Iberian spearmen/Ilergetean soldiers in Iberia)

Whats the point of using auxilia, besides for historical accuracy? I found this graph which I think demonstrates how to use the manipular formation.

[Ryoga84]

Whats the point of using auxilia, besides for historical accuracy?

because I like the idea of an army with a lot of different troops
and, by the way, the auxilia are replacable without going back to italy, which is not a bad thing...

I found this graph which I think demonstrates how to use the manipular formation.

exactly like I use it

[The Unknown General]

because I like the idea of an army with a lot of different troops
and, by the way, the auxilia are replacable without going back to italy, which is not a bad thing...

After thinking about it for a while I came to the conclusion, I could use the auxilia as either specialist units or throwaway units. Like I could use Celtic cavalry and Cretan archers, to make up for Romani's poor cavalry and archers. While using other melee auxiliaries to weaken and tire the enemy, before I make it rain pilum and commit my Romans.

[yuezhi]

I'm sure we're talking about polybian-era legions, that which is much needed since the only good units in a camillan roster are triarii.

[Ownager]

Hey, Principes and Hastati don't suck, Camillian or Polybian. You just have to use them well.

[Entropy Judge]

Hey, Principes and Hastati don't suck, Camillian or Polybian. You just have to use them well.

Actually, Camillan Hastati really aren't worth getting at all. If they didn't have terrible, terrible Shortswords they might be worth using, but unless you change that, Principes are just significantly better for almost no price increase.

[Boriak]

Well, I doubt changing your formations will cause any great difference in the end result. If you decide to go for the more historically accurate formations, what you achieve is just that - greater historical accuracy. If that doesn't do anything for you personally, don't do it. Play the game as you like.

I tend to use the checkerboard formation with the Romans though sometimes I wonder why I don't change it, especially when I have a cavalry-heavy enemy approaching and I put my spearmen in the back of my formation. It would make far more sense to put a strong line of hoplites in the front so their horses can get impaled nice and pretty.

I do change things around but I find myself rationalizing my decisions. My Greek armies will eventually develop a less rigid formation than a hoplite phalanx and it will become something like a modified Roman formation. Why? They fight Romans and see how effective their formation is. They see there's need for more flexible troops and armies. If they are to survive, they will have to adapt.

[Ownager]

Formations really do matter. Not so much with legions as phalanxes, but still so. I like the checker board formation, but it isn't really useful in-game. I never put Triarii upfront, because it just seems wrong. They get pummeled by missiles, and somehow die for no reason. Plus its so historically inaccurate. Having a line of Hastati to be replaced by fresh reserves is the reason I use the manipular formation.

[Ownager]

But, think again. I somehow manage to use them just fine. I play on medium battle difficulty, and my Hastati can hold the line.
That's all I ask of them. Why use Principes on the front lines when you can use them to flank and also fulfill historical demands.

[Entropy Judge]

But, think again. I somehow manage to use them just fine. I play on medium battle difficulty, and my Hastati can hold the line.

And I can use Lugoae to do the same thing. Reread what I posted - relative to C Principes, C Hastati simply aren't worth using.

That's all I ask of them. Why use Principes on the front lines when you can use them to flank and also fulfill historical demands.

Because Principes are better. 'Fulfilling historical demands' doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, as the whys, wherefores, and other reasons for history occurring do not necessarily happen in an EB game, and the Rome Engine does not support some of the things that were historically relevant.

[yuezhi]

Is there any battle where the Romans used only this formation and nothing else, besides maybe some equites flanking, and won?

[Ownager]

Hastati can chew up Lugoae, who you so bravely compared. I don't think the greatest empire in the world used a formula that didn't "matter in the grand scheme of things." Using nothing but Principes as line infantry is only a little better than using the console to cheat. However, I don't want to stomp your ideas and usage of Principes. Do what you want man.