Cavalry In The New World

[Luthurram]

I've noticed in the screens that we've seen of the Aztecs so far, they have one unit of spearmen....and they don't seem very likely to be able to stand up to light cavalry advances, not to mention the heavy horse units of the western europeans, so suffice to say, a decent contingent of cavalry in the new world should more than compensate for the vastly superior numbers the American natives possess. Gendarmes or the like would seem to be nigh on invicible when thrown into the fray. This will be interesting to see how it plays out....what do you all think?

[Ragss]

On the charge, sure, but if you put any cavalry up against a huge number of men, the horses will get bogged down and eventually torn to shreds. I doubt the Aztecs will do much retreating.

Just FYI, I'm pretty sure the gendarmes will be as they were in MTW1, 'discount knights' as I've seen them called. People seem to think they will be the elite force of the french army...

[The Mongol]

Well, apparently France sports the best cavalry in the West in MTW2.

Anyways, on topic. I don't think the Aztecs should have a whole lot of problem with cavalry, like Ragss said, the initial charge will do some damage but cavalry isn't the best in close quarters for very long. Apparently the Cuahchics (Elite) of the Aztec army swore to never retreat so I'm hoping the Aztecs have some good morale.

[mac89]

Remember that they have never seen a horse before, so their morale would probably be vastly lowered.

[Luthurram]

If used to hit and run, they might be whipped quicker than we think....we'll see.

[Luthurram]

In games such as Rome, cavalry did get bogged down if met with vastly superior numbers, but I've seen some of the Defense values of the Heavy Cavalry so far introduced, and I don't know how effective that will be in Medieval II. I'm naturally not speculating that 2 units of Gothic Knights can beat multiple stacks of staunch Aztec fervor, but I am saying that given a few more, and maybe we're talking Aztec Gold in Europe within a couple of turns, and within 1 voyage.

[Arjun]

On the charge, sure, but if you put any cavalry up against a huge number of men, the horses will get bogged down and eventually torn to shreds. I doubt the Aztecs will do much retreating.

Just FYI, I'm pretty sure the gendarmes will be as they were in MTW1, 'discount knights' as I've seen them called. People seem to think they will be the elite force of the french army...

my thoughts exactly!!! in mtw1 they sucked big time!! i never used gendamers!!
why do people think they are gonna be uber this time around?
did CA make any suck statements?

as for the main q about the cavs effectiveness in the americas, it largly depends on the terrain i think. maybe they would have lotsa forested areas, practically rendering cav useless. ur maybe the terrain would be uneaven/hilly, again limiting the cavs effectiveness and making em vulnerable to missile troops?

At Cajamarca, when Pizarro captured Atahuallpa 168 mounted Spaniards routed a force 500 times its size without losing a single man.

Even after this experience in four subsequent battles 30, 40, 80 and 110 spanish horsemen defeated armies numbering from the thousands to tens of thousands.

What is the moral of this story? Calavry kicks ass.

let me get this straight

168x500=84 000

i highly doubt this number
the numbers bust have been inflated

come on guys! if 84 000 men each just spat once 168 horsemen would be drowned!! lol

[Darkarbiter]

my thoughts exactly!!! in mtw1 they sucked big time!! i never used gendamers!!
why do people think they are gonna be uber this time around?
did CA make any suck statements?

as for the main q about the cavs effectiveness in the americas, it largly depends on the terrain i think. maybe they would have lotsa forested areas, practically rendering cav useless. ur maybe the terrain would be uneaven/hilly, again limiting the cavs effectiveness and making em vulnerable to missile troops?



let me get this straight

168x500=84 000

i highly doubt this number
the numbers bust have been inflated

come on guys! if 84 000 men each just spat once 168 horsemen would be drowned!! lol

Note he said routed.

[Arjun]

Note he said routed.

i meant routing, comeon! we cant expect 168 men to "kill" 84 00 men can we! lol!

also if i rem this correctly, this was when the spanish fooled the aztecs into coming to meet them without any weapons(cos the aztecs belived the spanish's false ceasefire/treaty), if those men were unarmed then the claim is somewhat belivable

what really happaned

"Pizarro gathered his officers on the evening of November 15 and outlined a scheme that, in its audacity, recalled memories of Hernán Cortés' exploits in Mexico: he would capture the Emperor from within the midst of his own armies. Since this could not realistically be accomplished in an open field, Pizarro invited the Inca to Cajamarca.

Atahualpa accepted this invitation, but, leading a procession of over eighty thousand men, advanced down the hillside only slowly the next day. Pizarro's fortunes changed dramatically in late afternoon when Atahualpa announced that the greater part of his host would set up camp outside the walls of the city. He requested that accommodations be provided only for himself and his retinue, which would forsake its weapons in a sign of amity and absolute confidence.

Having concealed themselves within the city, the Spaniards allowed the Incas to enter unopposed. An incident occurred when friar Vincente de Valverde approached the Inca and ordered him to renounce his pagan religion and to accept King Charles I of Spain as sovereign. Atahualpa was outraged and according to some, he proceeded to speak in unflattering terms about Catholic doctrine, the Bible and the office of the Papacy.

Valverde, equally infuriated by these indignities, urged Pizarro to attack. At once, the Spaniards unleashed murderous gunfire at the vulnerable mass of Incas and surged forward in a concerted action. The effect was devastating: the shocked and largely unarmed Incas offered such feeble resistance that the battle has often and more appropriately been labeled a massacre. At length, Pizarro captured and imprisoned the Inca at the so-called ransom room, ending all attempts at resistance. Although years of fighting would continue as the Spaniards consolidated their conquests, the Inca Empire effectively fell with a single blow at Cajamarca."


so, obvioulsy most of those natives were unarmed! and ambushed!! when they were supposedly invited !!!
this is like nuking an unsuspecting unarmed people and claiming that we killed a million people without suffering any casualties!

[Yosemite]

Coward techniques.

[Charok]

Historically the Aztecs feared the man-horse, so they should get a morale loss penalty.

They should also get a larger morale loss penalty than the other factions when fighing against gunpowder units.

Both of these things are historically accurate and will help us overcome their greater numbers. Will they be getting more soldiers per unit to simulate their large numbers?

[The Mongol]

Historically the Aztecs feared the man-horse, so they should get a morale loss penalty.

They should also get a larger morale loss penalty than the other factions when fighing against gunpowder units.

Both of these things are historically accurate and will help us overcome their greater numbers. Will they be getting more soldiers per unit to simulate their large numbers?

The only thing is, the Aztecs in MTW2 have the same unit number as any other faction.

Oh well, I'm not going to worry about it too much, I'm sure CA has it worked out.

[Ahiga]

The only thing is, the Aztecs in MTW2 have the same unit number as any other faction.

Oh well, I'm not going to worry about it too much, I'm sure CA has it worked out.

You recall how they had the Huns or hordes in BI? They will probably do something like that. Instead of one single army you'd end up facing quite a few in one battle.

[The Mongol]

That would be interesting and pretty accurate. The Aztecs had some pretty big armies.

[Burns]

It would take quite a lot of cavalry to really do anything in the New World. I know that the Spaniards re-introduced the horse to North (South?) America. I bet (at least in the time frame) that horses will be hard to replace when in the New World and more will have to be brought from Europe. This is just a very big assumption because very little has been said from CA.

Overall though I don't think Aztecs were terribly intimidated by the horses. That machete was apperently able to take a horse's head right off. I bet it was a matter of fact.

[Luthurram]

Imagine how they'd react to Elephants and Camels.....

[Hansa]

It would take quite a lot of cavalry to really do anything in the New World. I know that the Spaniards re-introduced the horse to North (South?) America. I bet (at least in the time frame) that horses will be hard to replace when in the New World and more will have to be brought from Europe. This is just a very big assumption because very little has been said from CA.

Overall though I don't think Aztecs were terribly intimidated by the horses. That machete was apperently able to take a horse's head right off. I bet it was a matter of fact.

They thought that the horse and rider were one, and it scared the he** out of them, they had never seen anything like it. A horse would be the largest animal they had ever seen, combine that with a mounted knight, and they ran like ...

Of course the main Aztek ciller was the virus, not the knight or gun, but this will be a bit to historical and gameplay counterproductive for CA to include. In the game I guess the Azteks will make a great opponent, and be able to stand off great attacks even by cavalery, not sure if the Spaniards (or anyone else) had the capability to transport large mounted armies to the new world, but if they had, the Azteks would have serious troubles.

[Ryder65]

I hadn't actually thought about that. It would make sense that you wouldn't be able to train new units of cavalry in the New World. I wonder if it'll be that way in the game. :hmmm: But that would probably require a horse resource, so we'll see...

[The Mongol]

You know, I've never really honestly thought of that.

Does Mexico even have horses!?

It's a pretty embarassing question but I don't know a whole lot about the place. I thought Aztecs would've encountered horses.

[Ryder65]

At this time, no. Every horse population in North and South America today is the result of the Spaniards and others bringing them over from Europe (and Asia). American species of horses have been extinct for thousands of years.