Suggestion: adding Armor Upgrades and Reorganizing Training.

[Apani]

In Vanilla Medieval, units can change their appearance with an armour upgrade; for example, a bunch of peasants being trained or retrained in a city with a Leather Tanner will visibly wear leather armor instead of peasant clothes.
However, in HTW each units only has one type of armour which can't be upgraded. There are also weapons upgrades, which are present in this mod, but they don't bring any graphical change althought they could.

As for training, the current recruitment system works like this: X-Tier Armory -> X-Tier Barracks -> X-Tier Soldiers.
I'd like if barracks worked similarly to the one of Call of Warhammer: You can build barracks freely, and even just the first one allows you to recruit almost every soldier (bigger barracks means bigger unit pool), but each soldiers also requires its specific smith level (soldiers who start wearing leather require a tanner, the ones clad in metal a blacksmith, gunpowder units even require alchemy schools). Shortly: X-Tier Barracks + Y-Equipment Armory -> Y-Equipped Soldiers.

What do you think about this proposal?

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

Graphically, I think we all need to keep our panties on and remember that no matter how much we hail Neph as a deity, we need to give him time and rest and not overwork him to the point that he no longer wants to work on the mod. In much the same way that you wouldn't ride a horse nonstop until it goes lame and has to be put down, we can't risk doing that to Neph.


That said, I was always somewhat intrigued by the Call of Warhammer system. That might be a cool way to do things.

[Apani]

Has somebody been pushing Neph recently? He's working like crazy on Hyrule Historia by his own initiative, but I'm concerned all those missions will end up superfluous.
I mean, the cutscenes and the story are very cool, people are praising him like the Hylians with Hylia, but Neph posting full walkthroughts of each level might hurt in the long run, I mean, would you play a game of which you have already seen every single level? I think he should at least stop posting full walkthroughts of each mission.
I also think that, to be really remarkable, the missions need to be challenging as well and units have to be balanced, the four first missions (save for Torn Asunder perphaps) are very easy and straightforward (althought just giving stronger units to opposing armies might be sufficient for this).

Now talking about unit and building stats, Neph's artistic skills are indeed wasted on coding text, an avatarless user with basics modding skills like me could do that as well. I've been working on reforming the Labrynna Regime to the Real Combat stats system, but when I see Crossbowmen and Javelineers don't have melee weapons I feel like asking Neph's intervention. I'll see what I can get done on Recruitment.

[Cameron Shutters]

Has somebody been pushing Neph recently? He's working like crazy on Hyrule Historia by his own initiative, but I'm concerned all those missions will end up superfluous.
I mean, the cutscenes and the story are very cool, people are praising him like the Hylians with Hylia, but Neph posting full walkthroughts of each level might hurt in the long run, I mean, would you play a game of which you have already seen every single level? I think he should at least stop posting full walkthroughts of each mission.
I also think that, to be really remarkable, the missions need to be challenging as well and units have to be balanced, the four first missions (save for Torn Asunder perphaps) are very easy and straightforward (althought just giving stronger units to opposing armies might be sufficient for this).

Now talking about unit and building stats, Neph's artistic skills are indeed wasted on coding text, an avatarless user with basics modding skills like me could do that as well. I've been working on reforming the Labrynna Regime to the Real Combat stats system, but when I see Crossbowmen and Javelineers don't have melee weapons I feel like asking Neph's intervention. I'll see what I can get done on Recruitment.

The missions will likely be rebalanced at the same time everything else is.

[CommyXD26]

Has somebody been pushing Neph recently? He's working like crazy on Hyrule Historia by his own initiative, but I'm concerned all those missions will end up superfluous.
I mean, the cutscenes and the story are very cool, people are praising him like the Hylians with Hylia, but Neph posting full walkthroughts of each level might hurt in the long run, I mean, would you play a game of which you have already seen every single level? I think he should at least stop posting full walkthroughts of each mission.
I also think that, to be really remarkable, the missions need to be challenging as well and units have to be balanced, the four first missions (save for Torn Asunder perphaps) are very easy and straightforward (althought just giving stronger units to opposing armies might be sufficient for this).

Now talking about unit and building stats, Neph's artistic skills are indeed wasted on coding text, an avatarless user with basics modding skills like me could do that as well. I've been working on reforming the Labrynna Regime to the Real Combat stats system, but when I see Crossbowmen and Javelineers don't have melee weapons I feel like asking Neph's intervention. I'll see what I can get done on Recruitment.

I still think Neph needs to post walkthrough (or I would say "testrun") so we all can help balance, buff up some missions so they should be harder. Not so many want to see these missions early so as not to spoil their flavor, but some dedicated fan of the game can see (+) and (-) in them to help Neph. Just sayin'.

[Encablossa]

Most often a modder is making it for himself. So if Neph intends to spend his own time on a Legend of Zelda story with cool battles and amazing cutscenes, more power to him.

And can you imagine how much work would have to go into making upgraded models of units? An extremely long time.

But maybe one day. And as you stated the more easily modded stuff can be done by forum members like TheHolyPilgrim, WindRider37, Jakeford, etc.

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

I may have come across a bit on the "shut up and like what you've got" side; that wasn't really what I was going for. I don't strictly disagree with you, Apani. I just happen to fall into the same camp as Encablossa, thought-wise. The stuff you suggest is stuff that I would really love to see, but I'm content as a cucumber to let things happen as they will.

Apologies if it seemed as though I was calling anyone out. I'd rather meant to say that mods are a lot of hard work; while I wouldn't go so far as to say anyone's really been riding Neph to get x, y, or z done, I was just hoping to say, "Let's NOT start that." It was a general remark, not aimed at any one, specific person. I've seen a lot of great mods die simply because the mod authors/teams just got too burnt out to get enjoyment out of their own projects, and the idea that this could happen to a mod as great as HTW really terrifies me, that's all.

So, sorry if I was brusque, but I stand by my comment.

[UndyingNephalim]

Armor upgrades have been planed for a long time, I've just not gotten around to them yet.


I don't think I'll ever become demotivated to work on this mod. I think it's kind of accidentally become my life's work, even more so then my original stuff. The only thing that would halt it is if I needed to focus on job money for awhile.

[Apani]

Then we don't need plot-spoiling cutscenes; also, it appears missions will only be rebalanced after they've been all completed, so it doesn't really matter he posts them so soon.

[CommyXD26]

Then we don't need plot-spoiling cutscenes; also, it appears missions will only be rebalanced after they've been all completed, so it doesn't really matter he posts them so soon.

I agree for no cutscenes (though I may get lost at the meaning of the battle like why I am fighting the enemy). But if we want to rebalance after they've been all completed, it'll be daunting, there's like >50 of them, not to mention we may mess up the plot here.

[Apani]

We can just settle to rebalance the 4 already released missions; you know, soon the Rise of Ganon missions will be released as well.

Anyways, I have a rather hard time classyfying some units' armours.

[Cameron Shutters]

We can just settle to rebalance the 4 already released missions; you know, soon the Rise of Ganon missions will be released as well.

Anyways, I have a rather hard time classyfying some units' armours.

Any balancing now will be wasted as the units and factions themselves are not balanced and most likely won't be until the freeform campaign is complete. Also, calm the hell down about "spoilers." If you want to see them don't watch the videos.

[Apani]

We have already estabilished that unit balancing can be done by anybody with basic modding skills, and Neph personally stated that he's be glad to have someone (TheHolyPilgrim, specifically) rebalancing units for him while he works on other things.

As for spoilers, it's not about me; I'm suggesting to stop posting full missions with the best interests of the game in mind. Previews and trailers should be enough to keep the fans excited, while they will also enjoy missions more once they've been released.

[UndyingNephalim]

We have already estabilished that unit balancing can be done by anybody with basic modding skills, and Neph personally stated that he's be glad to have someone (TheHolyPilgrim, specifically) rebalancing units for him while he works on other things.

It was a point I made earlier, but what Shutters means is that absolute balance cannot be done until every unit is in the game and everything is done. Think about it: if you currently balance every unit in the game right now, and then I add in 20 new units a few months from now, it will completely throw everything out of balance. That's why I am personally waiting until everything is completely done before I balance everything. I'm fine if anyone else wants to balance anything right now, they'll just have to put up with new units that might throw things out of whack every once in awhile.


And no I'm going to keep posting the missions and cinematics. If anyone doesn't want spoilers, it's as super simple as not watching them. There are walkthroughs of games I've not played all over youtube and I just don't look at them if I don't want spoilers.

[Apani]

Not necessarily. The Real Combat system (ThP was working with it) determinates stats basing on visible weapons, armor and other clearly (?) distinguishable traits of units (althought they kinda didn't account for robe-dressed desertic little people with pickaxes), not on how they fit with other units. But I'm sure that even if a final rebalancing was to be needed, all the previous work could be easily (relativedly) re-adapted.

I surely accept and respect your choices, I just thought people in general would have been more attracted to the game if the choice of watching them beforehand were removed.

[CommyXD26]

I surely accept and respect your choices, I just thought people in general would have been more attracted to the game if the choice of watching them beforehand were removed.

We all know that this is a fan work, and we as fans should contribute to make the mod better. Like how the game developer has co-workers with him, Neph has us as his co-workers (lol can I say that?). So I still want to watch them to help me understand his work and do the contribution, as for some others.
Or if you want the game not be spoiled by posting them on YT, perhaps there's another way to post them other than YT so that less people get spoiled. Idk.

[Jakeford]

Armor upgrades.

I don't know. I don't think they should be in the mod. The units of this mod are made to look a specific way, this a certain feel. For many humanoid units it would be ok. But I just don't think my Zora infantry would feel quite the same if they were wearing iron armor with chain. See what I am saying?

On top of that UD has hundreds of Missions, units, custom settlments, ect to do to because of the expansion packs. Unit upgrades should be the very last thing to do if they will be in the mod.

[Apani]

In truth, one of the most common features of LoZ games is upgrades (more exactly, sword and shield upgrades).
As for your example on Zora, know that each unit's appearance can be totally customized with each upgrade, so they can very well wear something more exotic than chainmail. The cap for upgrades is 3, so Zora Infantry's armor could be: Unarmored-> Partial Gold Scales-> Gold Scales -> Partial Gold Plate. They can also graphically wear the plating above the scales.

[Apani]

I just wanted to report my progress: So far the only factions I've worked on are Labrynna, Ordona and Lizalfos, of which only Labrynna I've fully reworked. (I need to give proper training costs to Lizalfos, while for Ordona I lack Ranch Animals. I also haven't done any siege equipment and stations).

Here follows a mini AAR:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So I decided to test my modifications on a custom battle: The setting was Ordona Plains, Summer, Clean, both armies were randomly generated (althought I took out Ranch Animals, Artillery and Gunner Posts and replaced them with other units so that the maximum florins expense would be reached).

My army (notice the unit sizing):

The Ordonian Army:

Both Labrynnian Elite Infantry and Ordona Cavalry costed more than the rest of the army.

Since we are a defensive faction, our formation is important:

We're on the northwestern hill, cannon fodder is deployed in front to serve as pillows against cavalry. Behind them, in the centre, there are Schiltrom Homeguards and Shield Wall Palace Watch to fend off enemies. Behind them there are Borderguards, to shoot enemies from safety and Knights of Ambi that will be ready to attack any moment. I send my Pathfinders forward to snipe cavalry:

They're marching westward to face us frontally. I would tell them to fire at the Horsemen, but I don't like the Archers and Rangers standing between their target. Let's aim at those and see if they react:

We managed to take out... not enough; they don't even flinch. In the meantime, Horse Archers spring from the army's rear. They'll make a better target...

Sir, what do you see?
It seems those incompentents can't even sustain a shootout with mounted farmers.
Maybe their wooden crossbows jammed...
Crossbows? Weren't they shooting ballistic knives? Sound the rally!

Here they come! Cannon fodder, charge!

They couldn't even graze them. It'll take more to arrest the might of Ordon browsers.

The fight proceeds: My infantry held them off perfectly and is now counterattacking, but my Pathfinders are being chased down by Horse Archers and they're almost all dead. My Borderguards weren't being much effective shooting parabolically, so I tried moving them in the open by the flank. Needless to say, they were chased away by a mob of fat Ordonians angrily swinging their hatchets; but at this point we're already repelling them.

We're taking down Goat Lords, but Horsemen attack our crossbowmen.

They finally rout, but the loss of our Pathfinders left us unable to chase them down, therefore we only get an Average Victory; it's nevertheless a big step forward from the overpowered Ordonian Heroic Farmers and underpowered Labrynnian Cops.