a little mythbusting about Roman Armor

[War lord]

If Mail was both cheaper and easier to maintain, why did the Legions bother with the Segmented Armour at all? I find the assertion that they suddenly decided to start making armour in such a unique and unprecedented style, for no real reason rather hard to believe.

According to various people here, LS was not very protective, at least less so then Mail or Scale, required a custom fit for the wearer, fell apart over the course of a single War season, and was difficult to repair.

If all of that was true, why would the Ancient World's premier Heavy Infantry force bother with it at all? Something isn't right.

[JaM]

it was not that hard to repair. you could easily replace damaged part on it. Latest archaeological findings of LS are especially interesting.. armors were found in areas where Legions didn't operated, only garrison forces. (findings in Spain, in area only garrisoned by Limitanei is mentioned by wiki)

Anyway, ifyou look at medieval period, Chainmail was not standard issue armor for some paesants.. it was used by knights who could afford it. with metallurgical advancements in early Renaissance it was possible to produce standard munition grade plate armor even for standard infantry which allowed armies to grow in size..during Medieval times only largest countries could afford armies bigger than 20000 men.

[War lord]

it was not that hard to repair. you could easily replace damaged part on it. Latest archaeological findings of LS are especially interesting.. armors were found in areas where Legions didn't operated, only garrison forces. (findings in Spain, in area only garrisoned by Limitanei is mentioned by wiki)

Anyway, ifyou look at medieval period, Chainmail was not standard issue armor for some paesants.. it was used by knights who could afford it. with metallurgical advancements in early Renaissance it was possible to produce standard munition grade plate armor even for standard infantry which allowed armies to grow in size..during Medieval times only largest countries could afford armies bigger than 20000 men.

If we drop the idea that it required some sort of mega skilled engineering, it does make a little more sense. If you're garrisoning some desolate Limes fort in the :wub: of butt nowhere inferior, I imagine easy repair is a top priority. If you're wearing Mail and it takes a pounding, that's a heavy repair bill from a professional armourer. With Segmented plates you can do the repair work yourself.

[HuangCaesar]

My point is if barbrian peasants had the capability to make chainmail(which was very expensive) why not make the cheaper more protective LS? Get the point?

Seriously if the Seg was really that cheap, a less technologically advanced Europe would be more capable of producing it.(as they can still make chainmail)

And the Seg is easy to produce? You really its that simple to to take massive plates, heat the to a perfect tempeture for hammering, and hammer them them to a perfect articulation and shape? There is a reason the LS existed only when Rome was economically capable. Why? Because it was more expensive and more difficult to repair than the Hamata. If Seg breaks or dents, the piece has to be completey repaired(again plates are expensive). If Chainmail dents(which it cannot) or breaks, only the broken links need repair.

The Limes theory is flawed as all Legions would be border garrisons in Principate mostly.

The Lorica Segementata is more expensive.

lets see here:

Lorica Segemtata-
-more capable of deflecting arrows
-more capable of distrubinding trauma damage
-plates are historically more expensive and harder to repair
-articulating plates is even more expensive(Medieval Europe proves this)
-if plate dents, it has to be replaced
-rusts more
-used as propganda piece for Legion only
-only existed when Rome was economically strong.
-more bulkier, that means more metal
-archelogical evidence shows STEEL.

Lorica Hamata
-no way as strong as Medieval chainmail as some were lower gauze and made of bronze links
-less capable of providing against piercing damage
-less capable of providing against trauma damage
-doesn't rust as often
-to make rings is easier to make plates
-can't dent
-if broken only the links need repair, not a whole area that recieved damage.
-progandaly only for Auxilia units. Although propaganda is not true always, it says a lot. The Romans didn't regard their "tinfoil armour" lower than the Hamata.

The LS is more expensive. It is obvious. If your theory is true, then Medieval Europe can make Lorica Segementata since it can already make chainmail.

Chainmail is hard and tedious to make, but the maintence required for the Seg is crazy.

Think about it. Chainmail gets crushed by warhammer, it will not dent and sometimes not even break due to its flexiblity. If it does break the links get repaired that are broken. If Seg gets dented, the whole thing needs to be stripped apart, and another sheet of steel to replace the damaged area.

[War lord]

Not much point making armour that has a main selling point of easy replacement (while the metal required skill to forge, you can reshape bent plates and replace broken ones with spares easy enough) when the only people buying armour can afford multiple expensive Mail hauberks, and there's about 1000 of them in the entire Kingdom.

Your comparison is utter nonsense, the writings of someone who knows little about Armour and keeps confusing any plate armour with Medieval Gothic plate.

[JaM]

HuangCaesar: cheap doesn't automatically mean it is also simple to manufacture for everybody... You need certain level of technology, something barbarian peasants were not well known of... Plus, even Celt Chainmail was not standard issue... it was armor of nobility, so im not sure where did you came with idea its something a barbarian peasant would wear... mind you - Celt Nobility were quite rich, Caesar become the most wealthy men in Rome after he subdued Gaul..it was Gallic money that allowed him to become what he became.. without it he would be not able to finance lengthy war with Pompey...


Regarding that Limitanei theory - it is quite valid.. during late Roman Empire, Roman army was divided to border force "Limitanei" and mobile shock force called Comitatenses. Cemitatenses were the force that was used to fight, they were not used for guarding duties...


and from pure technical perspective, 0.5-0.8mm thick plate made of steel is not that effective as you might think...1.5mm bronze (used for Lorica Musculata) provided much better protection. 4mm rings thick 0.8mm would also provide much better protection due to their "layered" structure... you cant compare Segmentata to medieval armors, as those were usually 1mm thick, with renaissance plates getting thicker and thicker.. Only advantage Laminata would provide is better trauma protection, yet Squamata was even better. Segmentata had at the other side limited coverage, it didnt protected groin area at all.. as i said in my first post, Veteran troops prefered Hamata if they could get it.. or do you think Centurions would like to be using inferior armor?

[JaM]

and most important at all. Lorica Segmentata was individually fitted...thats why it was the most expensive armor.

do you realize ANY smith can adjust you a simple strip of metal? it is not a rocket science...

Regarding Segmentata found in Auxiliary forts or be common equipment among Auxiliary troops there is no consensus

no there is not. They consider mixing legions with garrison force, yet they don't consider simpler solution - Laminata was not that special, as it was a munition type of armor... Auxilia used it, as well as garrison forces. it was not armor of elite units, and that is why it faded away. Squamata was more protective, Hamata was much better to wear and fight in.

[chris10]

do you realize ANY smith can adjust you a simple strip of metal? it is not a rocket science...

No, but since your are a smith you surely will tell me...Do you realize what the term individually fitted means ?

Laminata was not that special, as it was a munition type of armor... Auxilia used it, as well as garrison forces. it was not armor of elite units, and that is why it faded away. Squamata was more protective, Hamata was much better to wear and fight in.

Nobody suggested it was an elite units armor but you blatantly ignore the three sources I qouted who suggest auxiliary did NOT use segmentata and you do not back your claims with something substantial..do you have any other books about the Roman Empire ?...if not I may can help you out with some 150 books or so...dunno exactly...just tell me what you want...city planning, army logistics, food processing,

It was not the armor of Elite units, as many might think, on contrary, this armor was given to low quality troops, or even Auxilias.

I did not say it was elite armor nor I insinuated it was...jumping from that basic assumption (it was not elite units armor) to the conclusion it was low quality troops and auxiliary armor is utterly ridicolous...what is the base of this argumentation...any sources ? confirmations ? ...

Again, if LS is such an amazing wonder armour, why did it basically disappear from history after a certain time?

errrr...getting some basic knowledge before engaging in historical discussion is of advantage...it dissapeared due to its high cost and difficult maintenance as already pointed out by somebody else...and still lorica segmentata is on the Arch of Constantine erected in 315 and segmentata has been found in spain and dated to 3rd century.

and btw a form of segmentata armor technique was still used during 16th century using sliding rivets and was know as anima armor

[Mahgnus]

No, but since your are a smith you surely will tell me...Do you realize what the term individually fitted means ?

Nobody suggested it was an elite units armor but you blatantly ignore the three sources I qouted who suggest auxiliary did NOT use segmentata and you do not back your claims with something substantial..do you have any other books about the Roman Empire ?...if not I may can help you out with some 150 books or so...dunno exactly...just tell me what you want...city planning, army logistics, food processing,

I did not say it was elite armor nor I insinuated it was...jumping from that basic assumption (it was not elite units armor) to the conclusion it was low quality troops and auxiliary armor is utterly ridicolous...what is the base of this argumentation...any sources ? confirmations ? ...
errrr...getting some basic knowledge before engaging in historical discussion is of advantage...it dissapeared due to its high cost and difficult maintenance as already pointed out by somebody else...and still lorica segmentata is on the Arch of Constantine erected in 315 and segmentata has been found in spain and dated to 3rd century.

and btw a form of segmentata armor technique was still used during 16th century using sliding rivets and was know as anima armor

Good post mate + rep!

[JaM]

No, but since your are a smith you surely will tell me...Do you realize what the term individually fitted means ?

Nobody suggested it was an elite units armor but you blatantly ignore the three sources I qouted who suggest auxiliary did NOT use segmentata and you do not back your claims with something substantial..do you have any other books about the Roman Empire ?...if not I may can help you out with some 150 books or so...dunno exactly...just tell me what you want...city planning, army logistics, food processing,

I did not say it was elite armor nor I insinuated it was...jumping from that basic assumption (it was not elite units armor) to the conclusion it was low quality troops and auxiliary armor is utterly ridicolous...what is the base of this argumentation...any sources ? confirmations ? ...
errrr...getting some basic knowledge before engaging in historical discussion is of advantage...it dissapeared due to its high cost and difficult maintenance as already pointed out by somebody else...and still lorica segmentata is on the Arch of Constantine erected in 315 and segmentata has been found in spain and dated to 3rd century.

and btw a form of segmentata armor technique was still used during 16th century using sliding rivets and was know as anima armor

my collection of book is quite good, and i don't have problem accepting new theories and developments that might look radical to some, but actually make more sense. I have 8 semesters at Technical University at manufacturing technologies, and 6 semesters with mining technologies. Anyway history was always my passion. Thing is, i know a lot about steel production, manufacturing, i have also good knowledge of dynamics, statics, kinematics and physics, which back in school i didn't liked much, yet i find it quite helpful in understanding how things works..

I'm also well aware of Polish Hussaria armor and its built technique.


I have mentioned several sources already. Your sources were based also on assumptions, which didnt even made sense to the authors of these claims, as they failed to explain why these armors were found in locations where Legions were not present, but garrison forces.. during 3rd -4th centuries, all combat legions were Comitatenses, which were concentrated into "rapid deployment" force, they DIDNT guarded borders..

[chris10]

Thing is, i know a lot about steel production, manufacturing, i have also good knowledge of dynamics, statics, kinematics and physics, which back in school i didn't liked much, yet i find it quite helpful in understanding how things works..

Armor and Equipment production and maintenacne was organized in a centralized form for east and west since Augustus...there were dedicated fabrication and maintenance centers who produced equipment according and amended to local requirements.
Its like with all military equipment...once it is not officially provided and supported anymore it starts to fade away as it breaks down and there is no dedicated maintenance and spare parts anymore...its as simple as that. And since the segmentata was individually fitted it could not be simply given to another random guy of different weight, height or shoulder width. Anyway the segmentata was never the prevalent armor during the imperal time since it was simply too expensive to supply to all units but it offered by far the best overall compromise of protection, fatigue due to weight and individual mobility of the legionary

The production, fitting and maintenance of the segemtata armor was simply too expensive to uphold in the later period.
When the expansion of the roman empire came to halt during the 2nd centruy the financial problems started and cheaper equipment had to be mass produced.

The principal difference between lorica hamata (chainmail) and the lorica segmentata is simply that the segmentata needed to be poduced by a professional armourer and individually fitted on the soldier at the barracks while the hamata chainmail was tied together by slaves...and there was no shortage of slave labour in the empire...that pretty much tells you why its irrelevant to mention that a 30.000 ring chainmail took long to make since it was literally free or at "low labour cost" so to speak.

Off topic though, the "LS is the bestest, most expensive armour evar" people still can't explain why the people who invented such a "miracle" dumped it and went back to Chainmail for even the most elite units.

The answer has already been given and your excessive ironic claptrap about "best eva, miracle,wonder" wont change it...sounds rather like childish trolling

[War lord]

Again, if LS is such an amazing wonder armour, why did it basically disappear from history after a certain time?

Surely the elite units of the empire would have kept wearing LS till the end of the empire if it were so light and gave such good protection?

[Mahgnus]

If I was barabrian peasant I would choose unconfortable over getting pierced by an arrow in leather arrow.

You sir have not lived a single day in the infantry. lol

If you're wearing Mail and it takes a pounding, that's a heavy repair bill from a professional armourer. With Segmented plates you can do the repair work yourself.

The manufacturer (actually placing the links together) (I'm unsure of the ancient technique used to spine the wire) and repairing of mail is mind numbingly piss easy. I made my LH while watching TV most of the time. The issue that none has hammered home it's not as much as the material cost to make the LH but the massive amounts of man hours needed to complete one. I'm not talking about reenactment butted mail but actual flatted, riveted ringed mail. A slave better yet a kid or a monkey could honestly place links together. it took me what seems like forEVVVVVVERRRR to complete mine.

So you take a hit and bam! you shed a few links .. Man that sucks, I need to repair my armor when I get back to camp. Dam, I don't have any extra links on hand b/c I'm a piss poor soldier who was apparently never taught how to maintain his own equipment. Thats ok tho!, Ill just use my a bit of string or wire to tie the hole closed until I can get the proper riveted replacement rings Its that easy, I myself did this with some string when I lost around 10 important rings that holds a section of the doubling secure after some friends and I abused the hell out of it with different weapons.

A LS isnt as easy to maintain due to the constant replacement of hooks and straps. This is second hand information I have been told by owners of the LS as I don't own one myself. From what friends has said, the hooks are the major offenders as they tend to break and some have went as far as replacing the bronze with steel and painting it proper color. I cant really comment really on maintenance of the LS other when what I've been told. The ones that I have tried on were terrible fitting for me due to my 6'8 ogreish frame But I can say it more restrictive than mail in the torso.

Of course modern reconstructions will use modern techniques for making the steel plates which has a whole list of advantages compared to ancient Roman equivalent so therefore also might other issues that haven't noticed with all of the mentioned armors in this thread.

If Seg gets dented, the whole thing needs to be stripped apart, and another sheet of steel to replace the damaged area.

No not really. All of the plates are held together through a series of buckles and straps. we'll use your senario. We'll say, Hell, 3 plates got bent in by your Roman propaganda "barbarian metal smithing peasant" two of which as the top and bottom ends of the blow and the center plate too the full brunt of force. So your quite pissed that you allowed yourself to smashed but such a unworthy foe but never the less you dispatched him in quick order. But now you have to go visit the camp smith(s) which evvvvvvvvvvery legion had. He tells you, "Hey I'm not taking those plates out! I got fix everyone else armor today sine you mates don't know how to block with your massive body covering shields. You take the dam plates out like you were taught to do and write your name on them and I'll have them hammed back into shape best I can in a 30mins. Until then get back to work since your not a milites immunes! Or I'll report you to your centurion for lashings!


Have some of you ever heard about this little known period of history some people refer to as the dark ages? You know, were basically the western part of Europe went to all to hell for the next couple hundred years. I pose the question then, of why canta king provide a fresh source of drinking water for all of his subjects instead of drinking from the plague infected well in the village during this time? I mean after all hell, the Romans made them hundreds of years before should be easy to go down to the local library and check out a book on engineering... /boggle

[War lord]

Have some of you ever heard about this little known period of history some people refer to as the dark ages? You know, were basically the western part of Europe went to all to hell for the next couple hundred years. I pose the question then, of why canta king provide a fresh source of drinking water for all of his subjects instead of drinking from the plague infected well in the village during this time? I mean after all hell, the Romans made them hundreds of years before should be easy to go down to the local library and check out a book on engineering... /boggle

Ah the Dark Ages, which is a renaissance invention, never happened, just because the Franks didn't have the manpower or time to maintain the aqueducts, doesn't mean they didn't know what they were for and the ERE was still doing fine back then.

Off topic though, the "LS is the bestest, most expensive armour evar" people still can't explain why the people who invented such a "miracle" dumped it and went back to Chainmail for even the most elite units.

[Mahgnus]

Off topic though, the "LS is the bestest, most expensive armour evar" people still can't explain why the people who invented such a "miracle" dumped it and went back to Chainmail for even the most elite units.

lulz.. it wasn't "da bestest" which is the point that mixed in this jumble of shitthrowing back and forth between people is attempting to be made.. somewhere at least. Rather that it was perhaps a stop gap solution that was not as piratical as other options. It however, is not like it disappeared over night; a LS would've been used until it literally fell part at the seams. As again already pointed out the answer has already been given.

[War lord]

lulz.. it wasn't "da bestest" which is the point that mixed in this jumble of shitthrowing back and forth between people is attempting to be made.. somewhere at least. Rather that it was perhaps a stop gap solution that was not as piratical as other options. It however, is not like it disappeared over night; a LS would've been used until it literally fell part at the seams. As again already pointed out the answer has already been given.

The answer which goes "they stopped making it, cus its expensive and stuff" apparently this is the same point in history when Cataphracts had no armour, cus its expensive and stuff. Cus Elites don't normally get the best armour or anything...

Yeah b/c thats the most important thing for those imperial guards who often spearhead attacks and invasions into foreign hostile land instead of living the cush life in a city.

Comitatus praesentalis?

[JaM]

The following numbers from Alan Williams's The Knight and the Blast Furnace show how much kinetic energy it takes for an arrowhead to penetrate plate at four different grades of quality:

1mm = 28/41/61/83 J
2mm = 88/131/193/263 J
3mm = 150/225/330/450 J


So, lets assume that Roman Steel was of a highest quality, which means 1mm would protect you against 83 joules of kinetic energy.. how much energy can stop 0.5-0.8mm plate? wont be more than 60 joules... Chainmail at the other side, could stop piercing hits with kinetic energy around 70 joules, slashing hits at 130 joules (or more)... so yes, Segmented plate is better against blunt force, yet, it is easier/or similar to penetrate by projectiles


Compare it to Squmata, where 68% of profile had at least 2 plates overlapping.. with 0.9mm thickness it gives you 1.8mm steel protection..

[War lord]

I know that, yet high cost doesn't explain elite units like the Scholae Palatinae with much higher pay who spent most of their time in Greece or Italy and had plenty of time to do nothing but polish their Armour not using this so called "wonder armour".

[chris10]

I know that, yet high cost doesn't explain elite units like the Scholae Palatinae with much higher pay who spent most of their time in Greece or Italy and had plenty of time to do nothing but polish their Armour not using this so called "wonder armour".

Armor and Equipment production and maintenacne was organized in a centralized form for east and west in the imperial time...there were dedicated fabrication and maintenance centers who produced equipment according and amended to local requirements.
Its like with all military equipment...once it is not officially provided and supported anymore it starts to fade away as it breaks down and there is no dedicated maintenance and spare parts anymore...its as simple as that. And since the segmentata was individually fitted it could not be simply given to another random guy of different weight, height or shoulder width. Anyway the segmentata was never the prevalent armor during the imperal time since it was simply too expensive to supply to all units but it offered by far the best overall compromise of protection, fatigue due to weight and individual mobility of the legionary

The production, fitting and maintenance of the segemtata armor was simply too expensive to uphold in the later period.
When the expansion of the roman empire came to halt during the 2nd centruy the financial problems started and cheaper equipment had to be mass produced.

The principal difference between lorica hamata (chainmail) and the lorica segmentata is simply that the segmentata needed to be poduced by a professional armourer and individually fitted on the soldier at the barracks while the hamata chainmail was tied together by slaves...and there was no shortage of slave labour in the empire...that pretty much tells you why its irrelevant to mention that a 30.000 ring chainmail took long to make since it was literally free or at "low labour cost" so to speak.

[chris10]

accidental post