Lithuania or Novgorod?

[Razor]

I'm creating a scenario mainly for myself and perhaps also for a mod. Anyway I have a question:

I'm not sure whether to include Lithiania or Novgorod.

My list would be:

1) Scotland
2) England
3) France
4) Leon and Castille
5) Aragon
6) Portugal
7) Almoravids
8) Denmark
9) Holy Roman Empire
10) Venice
11) Papacy
12) Sicily
13) Poland
14) Hungary
15) Byzantine Empire
16) Seljuk Turks
17) Fatmid Caliphate
18) Timurids
19) Golden Horde
20) Kievan Rus
21) either Lithuania or Novgorod

[NikeBG]

I personally would prefer Lithuania. Although Novgorod is not a bad choice either...

[Hansa]

Depends on time line, when the scenario ends and begins.

[Spart]

Tough choice, but I'll say Lithuania. One Russian faction is enough.
But the Kievan Rus? All those factions won't fit to eastern Europe at the same time, i think.

[JANOSIK007]

Bohemia, but not instead of Novgorod. You need an eastern faction and this one was especially powerfull. But Sicily or Scotland, which are in the main game could be replaced. In your place I would add Lithuania and Novgorod. You'd be losing one already made and unique Eastern faction (Novgorod) and one about to be made. Sicily became a Hohenstaufen and then Aragon possesion anyways. And Scotland, though fun to play, did not rise to the status of either Bohemia or Lithuania. Lithuanians were unique and came to carve out quite an empire for themselves as the Golden Hoard was retreating. Bohemians also had a unique mix of Slavic and Western elements, and totaly unique Hussite rebels.

Otherwise your faction lot is fine. Let us know what you decide.

All those factions won't fit to eastern Europe at the same time, i think.

?
Western Europe has way more factions. I think that space needs to be loosened up.

[Spart]

Well, I meant that they all had their own times of glory, and they don't exactly fit there in the same time, here's some maps:
Kievan Rus:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...van_Rus_en.jpg
Lithuania (was a bit bigger for some time, I think:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ropein1328.png
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...zpospolita.png

+Hungary, so I wanted to know what's the timeline? These all existed in different times.
Don't know if you understood but.. Just thinking..

[Pelican Man]

PFFF.... Ofcoarse Lithuania.... I would mind making an alliance with them being Poland. Then expand, and RULE THE WORLD!!!!!! MUAH HA HA HA.

Novgorod would be alright, maybe both, in a mod. But i'd still rather have lithuania.

ANyways, YA. :tooth:

THE P-MAN

[Razor]

Sorry my apologies. The timeframe will be the same as M2TW.

But I was thinking something else. I think CA's choice of having one Rus' faction situated in Novgorod isn't a bad idea either. Kievan Rus was on it's way to decline and regional Rus governments appeared of whom Novgorod was an important one. This way Lithuania can be included.

However I heard that Bohemia also should be a seperate faction. I merely counted them as a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Deleting Scotland and Sicily doesn't sound really attractive to me. They both form a counter force to respectively England and the HRE. Also Sicily still was a/were seperate kingdom(s) for quite some time.
The problem is that if you really want to portray the HRE really accurate, then many more factions should be included than just Bohemia me thinks. Unless you can persuade me to think otherwise... :original:

My list at the moment:

1) Scotland
2) England
3) France
4) Leon and Castille
5) Aragon
6) Portugal
7) Almoravids
8) Denmark
9) Holy Roman Empire
10) Venice
11) Papacy
12) Sicily
13) Poland
14) Hungary
15) Byzantine Empire
16) Seljuk Turks
17) Fatmid Caliphate
18) Timurids
19) Golden Horde
20) Rus (situated around Novgorod)
21) Lithuania

[the_mango55]

I voted lithuania

I actually prefer Novgorod, but the Russians in the game already are close enough to Novgorod for me.

[JANOSIK007]

However I heard that Bohemia also should be a seperate faction. I merely counted them as a part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Why?

Even CA excluded Bohemia out of HRE. Bohemia was a kingdom for longer than Sicily and it acted as independently. Plus you got more unique units when you add in Hussite rebels.

So why?

[Kdar]

Don't they have Novgorod in the game.. only they calling it "Russia"

[edmont]

Of course Novgorod they been viking offspring.Not to mention that Lithguania was weak and splitted before Western Russians asked to become vassals of Lithguanian duke to escape Golden Horde.Then in 1500 farher of Ivan 4,yeah-the Terrible, in one bloodless summer campaign called Silent War took all those W.-Russian lands back:they didn't want to remain with catholics.As a matter of fact this why he could proclaim himself first Tzar of Rus.And Kiev(Konunggård) as much looked like Novgorod(Holmgård) as maybe Hungary to Sweden-not much at all . Kievans were breed of Slavic and Kumans and Khazars with steppe tactics,but Novgorodians were mix of Swedish Ros-Vikings,Slavic and Finns-Nordic axemen and spearmen they didn't have horse archers in those unending forests.They took so much from Goths(Swedes)that were only one democratic state in area all the way to Nortern Italy .

[Matty_P]

lithuania?

historically speaking, they were of little significance until their union with Poland. for various reasons. I still think they are more important than novgorod.....

[Azai Nagamasa]

Novgorod, easily. They achieved more than Lithuania could have ever dreamed of during their medieval life-spans.

Lithuania, like several small yet mentionable kingdoms like Serbia and Bohemia, had little to no impact on the world and what was happening, and when it did it was for a brief period and even then did not have that much significance.

Whereas Novgorod, well, the Rus become an Empire around that city, crushed several peoples including the Kipchaks, Judaic Khazars, not to mention they've slammed Poland several times (and probably Lithuania, but my knowledge on that is sketchy). Let's not forget they were the heirs of Byzantium once Constantinople fell and all the Orthodox missions from Constantinople fled there.

CA made the right choice with Novgorod and avoided the 'million tiny kingdoms that had 1 minute of fame' bit that so many mods have with their factions.

[Matty_P]

yeah, umm, Novgorod's evolution into Russia doesn't constitute it a place on the mantle separate from the

'million tiny kingdoms that had 1 minute of fame'

.

essentially, Novgorod was weak, yes, i said it. Their very existence was centered around the east-west trade and the various river trading networks in Russia. They're armies were strong enough to maintain their trade position, but not much else. they were, in my opinion, pretty impotent.

they've slammed Poland several times

to my knowledge, Poland and Novgorod never really came into conflict where either side was 'slammed'.

if so, we slammed back. Poland has had the unfortunate recurring scenario where it's nation has been under assault from all sides. It seems to me, and i might just be a tad biased, that Poland has been one of the more resilient European nations. We repelled invasions and occupation from Austria, Hungary, HRE, Prussia, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, the Ottomans, and the Mongols.

[Scarlett Letterman]

Including a russian faction doesn't really work in this time period; to accurately depict the Russian situation (prior to 1240) you would have to include several factions (Novgorod, Vladimir-Suzdal, Kiev, Gallicia-Volynia) that held a fractious alliance and with Kiev ostensibly as the supreme authority. Really, the period 1100-1240 is too divided to included a single Russian faction.

If your looking post 1240, note that Kievan-Rus seizes to exist by 1240 as the Mongols rolled over it, and that Novgorod as well as Vladimir Suzdal existed alongside the Golden Horde (Russian region of mongol empire under Batu Khan) as subservients. In this period I would add Vlad-Suz over Novgorod since it later evolves into the Muscovy regime based in Moscow.

What I'm saying is go with Lithuania, its easier to depict, and in terms of historical representation, Russia is better left as rebels.

[Scarlett Letterman]

Whereas Novgorod, well, the Rus become an Empire around that city, crushed several peoples including the Kipchaks, Judaic Khazars, not to mention they've slammed Poland several times (and probably Lithuania, but my knowledge on that is sketchy).

Rus (or Kievan-Rus) was centered on Kiev not Novgorod, though novgorod came to become fairly independent and rebellious against Kiev. Novgorod and Poland didn't do much fighting, Novgorod was more busy with Swedes, teutonics in the Baltic and Princely fratricide in Rus.

CA made the right choice with Novgorod and avoided the 'million tiny kingdoms that had 1 minute of fame' bit that so many mods have with their factions.

but honestly this is the best way to depict it. I know simplicity is a good thing, but when you start to learn a lot about a region, you crave to see it accurately depicted so you can play out the history books yourself. Before I might not have cared, but the idea of Novgorod representing all russia is a turn off now

[Chuffy]

CA made the right choice with Novgorod and avoided the 'million tiny kingdoms that had 1 minute of fame' bit that so many mods have with their factions.

Name a few mods that do this.

Oh and CA avoided it?

Scotland, Sicily, Portugal and Milan.

[Zenith Darksea]

If I only had 21 choices...

1. Scotland
2. England
3. France
4. Holy Roman Empire
5. Venice
6. Sicily
7. Castile
8. Aragon
9. Almoravids (Moors)
10. Papacy
11. Byzantine Empire
12. Denmark
13. Serbia
14. Seljuks (Turks)
15. Fatimids (Egyptians)
16. Kiev
17. Novgorod
18. Lithuania
19. Mongol Golden Horde
20. Poland
21. Hungary

And if I had 30 choices...

22. Portugal
23. Armenia
24. Bohemia
25. Bulgaria
26. Norway
27. Milan
28. Genoa
29. Timurids
30. Abbasids (in Iraq)

[PacSubCom]

Because nobody but you is interested in it?