About trolls on walls, siege towers and ladders.

[leo.civil.uefs]

As we know this is a old discussion.

Trolls are set as infantry in TATW 3.2, that means they can climb ladders, be deployied on walls and also climb siege towers.
That is something we really dont want to see.

Im studying this issue at the moment. As I see King Kong has made Sauron a elephant, so sauron cant do such things as climbins ladders etc.

We can do the same for trolls and ents. However, Im not right about the consequences of it, specially on how the AI would act with them if they were cavalary or elephants.

So my point with this thread is to try ghater all the information available from other members and then try to guide my investigation and possible future tries on it.

Personally, I dont think that there would be any problem in trools and ents beeing elephans or cavalry, yes they would act like such, and so what? It would actually bring more sense to the game as, as cavalary they would be vulnerable to spears. I see no problem. But I have my doubts and thats why this thread is here.

Im hoping to hear from old members, specially moderators, about what they know about this, everyone who has impportant information about this please post.
If you dont know anything about this please dont flood the thread.

[k/t]

The bonuses that spears get against horses are completely unrealistic.

Just make them elephants and see what happens.

[the lightning legion]

I would rather they were horses a creature that size simply couldn't avoid stakes and would get hurt by them

[Macilrille]

We know that Trolls are large, tough, stupid and aggresiive. We know that they are used to charge and break the enemy ranks.

So far so good.

Elephants do not charge, so Elephants do not portray Trolls well. Elephants run amok, we do not know if Trolls do and I would say that you could argue both that they would and would not. But they are monsters infused with Melkor's evil, not animals, so... I believe they would not.

Cavalry are vulnerable to stakes, should Trolls be? I would say they should, but... play balance, it would make it easier to play good guy and take the only trumph card away from the baddies.

Infantry then? Well, they are, but the manning of siege towers, ladders and fighting on walls, is quite undesirable and unrealistic. So what should they be?

I cannot say, but this is the pros and cons.

[Ngugi]

If cavalry they would be used to run around to flank and to hit & run etc., beside other cons, and that has not been desired both from lore and strategic aspect AFAIK.

[Bladvak]

I say stick with heavy infantry type.

Troll catapults should be enough of a reason , and at least lore-wise that's a good base on which trolls can be depicted. You've got domesticated or at least trained trolls that can perform simple heavylifting tasks (catapults, gates), with a bit of training in the troll grounds you can train them to climb walls as well. Also, while trolls are stupid by man and elf standards, they were smart enough to take care of themselves, on their own (Bilbo's three trolls). While Bob was dumb, the other two were not so much, and this can sustain that trolls, like any other race, had leaders of their own. With leaders, you can climb walls, as long as the leader shows you how.

Also, lore-wise, stakes could hurt trolls, but play-wise and balance-wise, it would not be ok, just like Macilrille stated. Even if you remove stakes from most units, that will leave them unbalanced when against other cavalry.

[Påsan]

I never use walls anyway


Seriously though keep them as they are. Always fun with some challenge, and a unit that strikes immediate panic attacks in most players without being too OP is worth keeping.

The mumakills with snipers however...

[AqD]

custom elephants are far more likely to crash M2TW....

[eugenioso]

my idea has always been to give them a malus against spears. the fact that theyre monsters with tremendous armor in addition to their already incredible defense skill, means it would take quite a lot to finally take down a single troll, let alone 12 on the huge settings. a huge beast charging into a wall of spears or pikes would suffer, swordsman class or not.

[leo.civil.uefs]

the workshop isnt really active, s I will ask here.


I managed to make trolls elephants and so they cant climb walls anymore.

However, they are using the current troll mesh files, wich I link are linked to its animations.
They charge but then they dont attack. they just keep standing and do nothing until the enemies kill them.
I also noticed that they die too fast, like if their tstas where lowered.

I think that, like sauron, the unit that can be seen on battlefield is actually the mount (like the horse or the elephant), something about animations for trolls having charge parts but not "elephant attack" or something like this is probably the cause of the problem.

[The Mouth]

I don't suppose it would be possible to make it impossible to interact with various things like ladders and siege towers and the like while Trolls are selected? And I also assume its impossible to create separate 'unit class' as I've never heard of it being done before....

If neither of those options can be done I'd personally prefer they stay heavy infantry.

[Pollster33]

Just a few thoughts.

1. Cant we just change the stats of Calvary Type Trolls to make them less squishy?

2. Could we make some trolls, like the ones of Gundabad and OOMM, Calvary (At least the unarmored ones) and other more trained Trolls, Heavy Infantry, to show that the trained ones have the capabilities to use a ladder and such?

3. Whatever happens we should avoid nerfing troll stats because they add a thrill to the game that them climbing ladders is an acceptable compromise.

[LuckyPistol]

Keep trolls infantry, I use them to defend the walls when being attacked

[Encablossa]

I think it would be more realistic if the more feral trolls were turned into elephants. They wouldn't be very disciplined and would very likely run amok.

But Mordor's Olog-Hai should stay heavy infantry since it is more probable they would be trained in military task.

[Veteraan]

As we know this is a old discussion.


Im studying this issue at the moment. As I see King Kong has made Sauron a elephant, so sauron cant do such things as climbins ladders etc.

We can do the same for trolls and ents. However, Im not right about the consequences of it, specially on how the AI would act with them if they were cavalary or elephants.

Perhaps I'm way off here, but aren't Ents already type: Elephants and category: cavalry?

[leo.civil.uefs]

Yes, Ents are elephants. They cant climb ladders or walls.

[Veteraan]

We can do the same for trolls and ents.

Ah, I thought so, it was the text above that made me wonder.

I played quite a few battles with Ents and in my experience they way they act on the battlefield should be fine for Trolls too. I have not played many battles against Ents, but from the few I can remember the AI seemed to manage them no worse than the other units. IIRC the Ents (and Sauron)can't run amok, so that should be possible for Trolls also. Can't remember if stakes effect them though. That would indeed be unsuited for Trolls.

custom elephants are far more likely to crash M2TW....

There have been quite a few people who experienced mysterious crashes when playing a battle involving Ents. Others seemed to have no such problems. Since Trolls are much more commonly used in the game than Ents, it could very well introduce a lot more of these problems if they are changed into Elephant types. I myself stopped using Ents in battle because it came to a point were there would always be a crash using them.

[leo.civil.uefs]

yes I have that crashes with ents and I know no solution for it.

I have to autorersolve such battles, something we really dont want to have with trolls.

[k/t]

Ah, the wonders of the RR/RC Compilation for 1.4, which has no such crashes.

In it, the Ents are elephants, the trolls are infantry, and it's just fine. The Ents charge and fight just like trolls do. Have you tried giving the trolls the same animation that the Ents have?

Perhaps the trolls became easier to kill because elephants are more likely to be hit by missiles and because javelins have a huge bonus against them.

[leo.civil.uefs]

Ah, the wonders of the RR/RC Compilation for 1.4, which has no such crashes.

RR/RC? What is this?