A few questions about balance and MOS

[Cirion]

Hello.

Maybe i should make this post in MOS section,but i have a few questions that are not really related to it.

Wall of text incoming.You have been warned!

Now after i kinda disliked Rome II-It felt too shallow and incomplete so i went to back to Third Age which i kind of felt the urge to play again.
It seems the Third Age has not changed at all,while MOS has improved so i decided to try it again.
I have been playing version 1.3 and i was quite in love with it.The attention to detail was visible and it really shows that those who made it really loved what they did.

Before i make comments that may sound offending i just wanna say that i appreciate the amount of work that has been done on Third Age and it's submods as a whole.

I love MOS,but for me version 1.6 is a step back.Later for that.

I understand that everyone has his own opinion,but i find that both Third Age and MOS are really not all that well balanced.
Lore is one reason but then there are some bad balancing decisions.

So i've been wondering is there any way i can balance the the game on my own?More specifically the unit stats and abilities without resorting to other mods?I don't wanna have someone else make decisions about balancing that i may not agree with.
Maybe there are other similar threads but the forum is huge and it's confusing.

Can anyone recommend me some mods similar to MOS as an alternative if it's not possible?

Are there any MOS compatible mods that are worth using?

Now only about MOS

I uninstalled Third Age yesterday and before i play(if i play again.All depends if i can change the mod the way i want to)so i don't have the unit stats in front of me to be 100% sure about them.

To me it seemed in vanilla Third Age Gondor had the short end of the stick.
I liked it in MOS though.

In 1.6 it seems to me he got even worse.Let me explain.

In 1.3 you can recruit Citadel Guards everywhere as long as you build barracks of the appropriate level.Same for Winged Swordsmen.
In 1.6 you can recruit Citadel Guards only in Minas Tirith and as i hear that is lore wise correct.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Guard_of_the_Citadel
It still does not justify the cost of building Army Barracks and above anywhere but in Minas Tirith and East/West Osgiliaths.Why there only?
Because Winged Swordsmen can be recruited only in those cities.In comparison the closest thing to them -the Battle Ready Dunedain only need native region even if they have(only slightly)weaker stats.Makes sense for the Winged Swordsmen to need native regions too?

Pelargir / Dol Amroth and their special units.Both cities are not only economical but military milestones of Gondorian might
Pelargir Bowmen are somewhat useful.Swan Knights are great!Same for the Pelargir Marines.
Even though the latter are classified as "skirmishers" they have 3-4 volleys before they run out of ammo.WTF?

Now the rest of the units...
According to the building browser i can't build regular Gondor Infantry/Spearmen in Pelargir and Dol Amroth.
Only those '"special" units (some of which are nice),but a Fiefdom Barracks in Minas Tirith is not nearly enough to make the infantry useful enough due to constant retraining.(Bowman and Marines are another matter though-they almost never take casualties)
I want to remove those "special" units from my game so i can recruit regular and retrainable everywhere Gondor Infantry/Spearmen.Or atleast make both the special and regular units recruitable in Dol Amroth and Pelargir.

If Isenguard attacks after they march over Rohan i am forced to build military structures in...Edhelond?(the elven city near Dol Amroth)so i can have reliable military force instead of "one timers" that i need to cross half the map to retrain.

It seems like someone said

"Dude,dude listen!We'll add some new units...
-Okay dude,but what are they good for?
-Dude...Who cares they look kewl?

No offense,just kidding,but it's somewhat true nonetheless.

In conclusion Gondor relies too much on certain cities,regions and units to have a decent military force.You are stuck using Gondor Infantry cos you can have it everywhere and the spearmen imho are kinda crap(why they too don't have "Good stamina" perk like their Infantry counterparts is beyond me)

Another annoying example of lack of balance.(There are many even though i understand everyone have his own feelings about balance)
Spear wall is my favorite infantry formation,very powerfull so let's make a little comparison on units using it

For some strange reason Gondor Pikemen have total defence of 13-no "armor piercing"
Uruk Pikemen have defence of 9,but slightly better attack,again no "armor piercing"
Fountain Guard have 25 defence i think,but are really rare, recruitable only Minas Tirith and have"armor piercing"
Noldor Guardians 33 defence,but lack "armor piercing", very few in numbers and recruitable in Imladris alone.
Now Rhun pikemen(forgot the name)have the astounding 21 defence,recruitable everywhere and armor piercing...

I won't comment on the orcish units because they are supposed to compensate with numbers and the Dwarves should have the best infantry anyway.
Rhun needs some nerfs because they not only have incredible variety of units(bar Monsters-Trolls/Mumakills/Ents),but are even better than factions that should excell in certain fields.

Thanks if someone reads this or even better -provide some information.

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

Alright, lad, I'm in something of an explanatory mood, so I'll hit as much of this as I have the patience for. Just be aware that I'm not finished my morning coffee yet. You've been warned.

Also, I'll take the liberty to bold specific things within your post at my discretion to clarify which parts I will be responding to. And some of your filler was omitted, because I didn't feel like it was immediately relevant to my responses or didn't need responding to.

I love MOS,but for me version 1.6 is a step back.Later for that.

I understand that everyone has his own opinion,but i find that both Third Age and MOS are really not all that well balanced.
Lore is one reason but then there are some bad balancing decisions.

So i've been wondering is there any way i can balance the the game on my own?More specifically the unit stats and abilities without resorting to other mods?I don't wanna have someone else make decisions about balancing that i may not agree with.
Maybe there are other similar threads but the forum is huge and it's confusing.

Can anyone recommend me some mods similar to MOS as an alternative if it's not possible?

Are there any MOS compatible mods that are worth using?

I tried the PCP mod several versions ago. It's similar, but not quite the same beast. I found it enjoyable; the only reason I don't actively play it anymore is I had some unrelated file backup issues and never bothered to download the new versions to reinstall. I do remember rather enjoying it, though. It may or may not be more to your liking; you'll have to read up on it for yourself. Or someone else will drop in that uses it.

Now only about MOS

I uninstalled Third Age yesterday and before i play(if i play again.All depends if i can change the mod the way i want to)so i don't have the unit stats in front of me to be 100% sure about them.

To me it seemed in vanilla Third Age Gondor had the short end of the stick.
I liked it in MOS though.

In 1.6 it seems to me he got even worse.Let me explain.

In 1.3 you can recruit Citadel Guards everywhere as long as you build barracks of the appropriate level.Same for Winged Swordsmen.
In 1.6 you can recruit Citadel Guards only in Minas Tirith and as i hear that is lore wise correct.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Guard_of_the_Citadel
It still does not justify the cost of building Army Barracks and above anywhere but in Minas Tirith and East/West Osgiliaths.Why there only?

Incorrect. Unless I somehow managed to bugger the mod files, I believe Fountain Guard are now recruitable from any top-tier barracks. What's more, Winged Swordsmen are also available from any high-level barracks (one or two barracks upgrades before FG, if I recall correctly but I'm not in the mood to jump into the game to check at this very moment). Again, hopefully someone else will show up to confirm or refute this.
Because Winged Swordsmen can be recruited only in those cities.In comparison the closest thing to them -the Battle Ready Dunedain only need native region even if they have(only slightly)weaker stats.Makes sense for the Winged Swordsmen to need native regions too?

Pelargir / Dol Amroth and their special units.Both cities are not only economical but military milestones of Gondorian might
Pelargir Bowmen are somewhat useful.Swan Knights are great!Same for the Pelargir Marines.
Even though the latter are classified as "skirmishers" they have 3-4 volleys before they run out of ammo.WTF?

Now the rest of the units...
According to the building browser i can't build regular Gondor Infantry/Spearmen in Pelargir and Dol Amroth.
Only those '"special" units (some of which are nice),but a Fiefdom Barracks in Minas Tirith is not nearly enough to make the infantry useful enough due to constant retraining.(Bowman and Marines are another matter though-they almost never take casualties)
I want to remove those "special" units from my game so i can recruit regular and retrainable everywhere Gondor Infantry/Spearmen.Or atleast make both the special and regular units recruitable in Dol Amroth and Pelargir.

If Isenguard attacks after they march over Rohan i am forced to build military structures in...Edhelond?(the elven city near Dol Amroth)so i can have reliable military force instead of "one timers" that i need to cross half the map to retrain.

Fiefdom/regional units are useful after their own particular fashion. I think the common tactic is to use them to supplement garrisons and attack forces while you're waiting for "standard" Gondor units to become available due to long replenishment rates. The Pelargir troops are useful light infantry, if you're into light infantry at all (I find that light infantry tends to lack the staying power I typically rely on; then again, I usually play Dwarves); Lossarnach units, while being almost universally criticized for not becoming available until far later in the game than any other fiefdom troops (due to Lossarnach- which is now Carasast due to the inclusion of the DaC map- being such a small settlement at the start of the game), Lossarnach Nobles can actually match Winged Swordsmen almost point for point in terms of statistics and effectively match their performance. Retraining is... even less available for the LN than the WS, but again, it's an extra couple high-performance units that you can field while the traditional troops are on cooldown from the barracks. Dol Amroth, by and large, can match any of the "standard" troops in performance, so while they're more difficult to keep at strength in prolonged campaigns, they're not without usefulness. Likewise, the Blackroot Vale Archers make a good substitute for Ithilien Rangers if you happen to have lost Ithilien or need them further west if you decide to move against anyone who isn't Mordor or Harad.

In terms of why the Pelargir Marines are listed as skirmishers, but have very limited ammuntion... Quite frankly it's because they're not skirmishers (except in rare instances such as pelting and kiting monstrous beasts like trolls or mumakil). It basically boils down to the M2TW engine and its limited classification system: the game insists on giving them such-and-such an arbitrarily pre-defined classification that doesn't necessarily fit their true strengths or actual purpose. If you're ever in doubt of what the PM are designed for, think of it logically: they're trained as marines. They do some fighting on land and a large amount of fighting at sea; there's no room to run or skirmish between ships-- just brutal boarding actions.

In conclusion Gondor relies too much on certain cities,regions and units to have a decent military force.You are stuck using Gondor Infantry cos you can have it everywhere and the spearmen imho are kinda crap(why they too don't have "Good stamina" perk like their Infantry counterparts is beyond me)

Yes and no. The western settlements really are slow to develop, and nobody will deny that, but they can be expanded relatively quickly if you focus on the farming and livestock buildings from turn 1 and keep your taxes at the lowest possible level. Growth rates are cumulative, so every extra two or three people in a settlement count. Sort of. It'll still take quite a while to get them beyond producing militia units, but some factions actually are much worse off in terms of "average starting settlement level" in my opinion.

Fair point about the spearmen, I suppose. Truth be told, I never really took much notice of that discrepancy. I've always just reached for units with 2-handers (again, Winged Swordsmen or LN) which both have excellent morale good (or very good) stamina, bonuses fighting cavalry, AND are effective against armor to boot. "But what about the early game?" you'll ask. Simple, have lots of militia units and if you're fighting an opponent bringing so much as a single unit of cavalry, never fight it in an open field.

Another annoying example of lack of balance.(There are many even though i understand everyone have his own feelings about balance)
Spear wall is my favorite infantry formation,very powerfull so let's make a little comparison on units using it

For some strange reason Gondor Pikemen have total defence of 13-no "armor piercing"
Uruk Pikemen have defence of 9,but slightly better attack,again no "armor piercing"
Fountain Guard have 25 defence i think,but are really rare, recruitable only Minas Tirith and have"armor piercing"
Noldor Guardians 33 defence,but lack "armor piercing", very few in numbers and recruitable in Imladris alone.
Now Rhun pikemen(forgot the name)have the astounding 21 defence,recruitable everywhere and armor piercing...

I won't comment on the orcish units because they are supposed to compensate with numbers and the Dwarves should have the best infantry anyway.
Rhun needs some nerfs because they not only have incredible variety of units(bar Monsters-Trolls/Mumakills/Ents),but are even better than factions that should excell in certain fields.

Thanks if someone reads this or even better -provide some information.

I really don't have much constructive (or even good) to say about pikemen of any faction. I can't use them to save my life (or a battle, or a campaign-- trust me, I've tried!) so I tend to not pay them much attention. Sorry I can't be of help in that regard.

As far as Rhun goes... they do have some really nasty units; as a habitual player of the Dwarves, nothing is quite as sobering as realizing that while you have (with a few exceptions) the highest armor ratings in the game AND practically all your units are effective against armor, most of Rhun's units are effective against armor as well. I still haven't quite figured out how to minimize losses against them as any faction, BUT I also wouldn't say they need nerfs.



All told, there are some responses for you. I'm sure others will be along to chime in, if I haven't already been ninja'd in the time it took me to write this up. I hope some of this, at least, has been useful to you; I'm on a couple times a day, minimum, to field responses and further questions.

[Veteraan]

I really don't have much constructive (or even good) to say about pikemen of any faction. I can't use them to save my life (or a battle, or a campaign-- trust me, I've tried!) so I tend to not pay them much attention. Sorry I can't be of help in that regard.

As far as Rhun goes... they do have some really nasty units; as a habitual player of the Dwarves, nothing is quite as sobering as realizing that while you have (with a few exceptions) the highest armor ratings in the game AND practically all your units are effective against armor, most of Rhun's units are effective against armor as well. I still haven't quite figured out how to minimize losses against them as any faction, BUT I also wouldn't say they need nerfs.

I always found Gondor and even Dol Amroth pikemen very useful to hold the line against the Harad cavalry attacks.

Rhun is indeed somewhat overpowered when the the "golden boys" start to make their appearance. I succeeded to beat those armies with surprising little losses playing as the Silvan Elves. The SE army typically would consist of at least 10 units of their extremely effective horse archers, archers with stakes, 2 units heavy spearman and a few catapults. I did not yet play them in the 1.6x MOS version though, so perhaps things have changed.
They certainly have for the amount of stack spam (hoping for better things, aka MOS 1.62)

Edit: Oops, Ngugi moved this while I was typing this reply which is mostly about MOS and all about gameplay.

[Bladvak]

It seems the Third Age has not changed at all,while MOS has improved so i decided to try it again.

That's because King Kong (the team leader for vanilla TATW), has not released any new version in a long while, but the MOS team is very active. Actually, modders have a hard time continuing modding because he's not around to give permission for use of TATW material.

Before i make comments that may sound offending i just wanna say that i appreciate the amount of work that has been done on Third Age and it's submods as a whole.

We all appreciate the work done by each and every member of TATW, MOS, PCP, FRoGS, along with the incorporated mods.

I understand that everyone has his own opinion,but i find that both Third Age and MOS are really not all that well balanced.
Lore is one reason but then there are some bad balancing decisions.

Give examples about what is not balanced. I'm not sure if you know, but there is actually an occupation for mod team members such as : unit balancer. You can sometime see that guy in the credits. Balancing the factions and making sure that it's lore-wise is very opposable in nature, getting to the perfect equilibrium takes skill, if not a stroke of genius. I'm not sure what you thought about balancing, but let's take your example and further disseminate it:

For some strange reason Gondor Pikemen have total defence of 13-no "armor piercing"
-strange reason, indeed. not to mention that Gondor pikemen are recruitable from everywhere in as fast as it takes to build the proper barracks in Minas Tirith/West Osgiliath. Gondor is also an economic powerhouse, with many fortresses and large cities. That's also to be considered when balancing. Gondor is also a faction that specializes in heavy infantry (Gondor pikemen, spearmen, infantry, winged swordsmen, FG, not to mention regionals from Lossarnach, Pelargir and Dol Amroth). Gondor has so many different types of units and so many settlements it's actually advisable to not make the units too strong.
Uruk Pikemen have defence of 9,but slightly better attack,again no "armor piercing"
-less defence, but better attack. seems balanced out with the pikemen, stat-wise
Fountain Guard have 25 defence i think,but are really rare, recruitable only Minas Tirith and have"armor piercing"
-I do not consider FG as pikemen, I consider them as elites. they are of a totally different class, on par with trolls. ap is useful against the armoured opponents.
Noldor Guardians 33 defence,but lack "armor piercing", very few in numbers and recruitable in Imladris alone. ap would be of less use against Gundabad and OotMM than the 8 points in defence.
-again, elites. they CAN be compared to FG, since they are both elites.
Now Rhun pikemen(forgot the name)have the astounding 21 defence,recruitable everywhere and armor piercing...
-you forget the fact that Rhun is far from most factions. Also, you forget the fact that without the ap, they'd be pretty much useless against dwarves.

So i've been wondering is there any way i can balance the the game on my own?More specifically the unit stats and abilities without resorting to other mods?I don't wanna have someone else make decisions about balancing that i may not agree with.
Maybe there are other similar threads but the forum is huge and it's confusing.

Search in the forum and if you do not find the info, ask in the modding thread.

Can anyone recommend me some mods similar to MOS as an alternative if it's not possible?

TATW mods : PCP, FRoGS, and some others. But even if you do install them, you'd probably want them balanced, so I guess you're stuck with finding the info needed to balance them. As far as I can see, balancing a finished unit is a tedious and something of a time-waste (you'd have to balance every other unit and make sure you didn't screw anything up)

In 1.3 you can recruit Citadel Guards everywhere as long as you build barracks of the appropriate level.Same for Winged Swordsmen.
In 1.6 you can recruit Citadel Guards only in Minas Tirith and as i hear that is lore wise correct.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Guard_of_the_Citadel
It still does not justify the cost of building Army Barracks and above anywhere but in Minas Tirith and East/West Osgiliaths.Why there only?
Because Winged Swordsmen can be recruited only in those cities.In comparison the closest thing to them -the Battle Ready Dunedain only need native region even if they have(only slightly)weaker stats.Makes sense for the Winged Swordsmen to need native regions too?

It's all a lore-wise decision, as far as I can see. Also, imho, Winged Swordsmen is a unit for the eye, not really lorish to build it before rebuilding Osgiliath.

Pelargir / Dol Amroth and their special units.Both cities are not only economical but military milestones of Gondorian might
Pelargir Bowmen are somewhat useful.Swan Knights are great!Same for the Pelargir Marines.
Even though the latter are classified as "skirmishers" they have 3-4 volleys before they run out of ammo.WTF?

Now the rest of the units...
According to the building browser i can't build regular Gondor Infantry/Spearmen in Pelargir and Dol Amroth.
Only those '"special" units (some of which are nice),but a Fiefdom Barracks in Minas Tirith is not nearly enough to make the infantry useful enough due to constant retraining.(Bowman and Marines are another matter though-they almost never take casualties)
I want to remove those "special" units from my game so i can recruit regular and retrainable everywhere Gondor Infantry/Spearmen.Or atleast make both the special and regular units recruitable in Dol Amroth and Pelargir.

I believe this was a decision based on lore, necessary for diversity, roleplay and usual play. Dol Amroth, Pelargir, Lossarnach, Ithilien and Blackroot Vale units were added to make the military as close as possible to the actual situation. Nobody likes clones and the logistical nightmare can be addressed by using the units in the closes fronts : Ithilien units against Mordor, Dol Amroth and Pelargir against Harad and Blackroot in the west. Lossarnach everywhere. If you want to remove the units and go with clone units, it's a pretty easy fix as far as I know, but I don't know the actual steps, you'd have to search or ask in the modding thread.

If Isenguard attacks after they march over Rohan i am forced to build military structures in...Edhelond?(the elven city near Dol Amroth)so i can have reliable military force instead of "one timers" that i need to cross half the map to retrain.

1. A good Gondor player will not let Rohan be marched over.
2. Why build military structures in Edhelond and not use the Dol Amroth units, since it's just one turn away? You're retraining anyway, right?

It seems like someone said

"Dude,dude listen!We'll add some new units...
-Okay dude,but what are they good for?
-Dude...Who cares they look kewl?

No offense,just kidding,but it's somewhat true nonetheless.

A lot of research was put in and a lot of time was spent in creating those units, both to make them useful and to make them lore-friendly. You stated at the beginnig that you appreciate the work, but apparently you don't seem to appreciate the things you don't want to use.
On a side note and maybe not for this case, as for the "no offense" syntagm, I find that most often than not, people use it to actually give offense and not be accounted for it.

In conclusion Gondor relies too much on certain cities,regions and units to have a decent military force.You are stuck using Gondor Infantry cos you can have it everywhere and the spearmen imho are kinda crap(why they too don't have "Good stamina" perk like their Infantry counterparts is beyond me)

IT'S WHAT GONDOR DID!
Did you read RotK? Did you read all the units that came to Minas Tirith's help? Then you know they were not Citadel Guards and Gondor Infantry and Gondor Pikemen, but units from all other the Gondorian realm, of different size and quality, ranging from light archers, almost militia-level light infantry to the tanks that were Swan Knights. Militias, semi-professional and professional units are what made an army for most of the time.
Also, try to remember that Gondor also has archers and cavalry, but you're not getting there because :
a) you don't use them
b) you're happy with them
Either way, combined arms is how you wage a successful campaign.

I won't comment on the orcish units because they are supposed to compensate with numbers and the Dwarves should have the best-armoured regular heavy infantry anyway.
Rhun needs some nerfs because they not only have incredible variety of units(bar Monsters-Trolls/Mumakills/Ents),but are even better than factions that should excell in certain fields.

Corrected that for you. Believe it or not, Elves are those that are supposed to have the best infantry world-over (Noldor smiths and millenias for training tells you anything?) Elves have the best infantry stat-wise, Dwarves have the best armoured regular heavy infantry, Gondor has the most balanced infantry while Isengard and Mordor have the cheapest infantry adjusted for cost and upkeep.

Thanks if someone reads this or even better -provide some information.

I hope I just did that -provide info. I also hope you'll take this as a constructive criticism and not hold any grudge against my honesty. Ulfgard the Unmaker may have answered better than me, at least on a diplomatical level.

[Ngugi]

Moved; weither concerning MOS or not it's obviously tied to modding of TATW

[Jmonstra]

If you're interested in keeping a lot of the features of MOS but looking for a different balance then I have a submod that does just that.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-for-MOS-1-6-1

So far people have enjoyed the balance, but you can decide for yourself if you like it or not.

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

Eh. I just tend to not use units that I, personally, haven't figured out. I mean, obviously "the pointy bit goes in the other guy," but for some reason, I've never nailed down how to effectively use pikes in the game. I understand how they're supposed to work, and I understand how they worked in history, but I just can't make magic happen with them in the game. For all that they're in position long before contact, and all formed up into spearwall, the practically never actually attack the enemies that are trying to engage them (at least, not until the enemy has bum-rushed them in the way the AI does, using unit mass to levitate-push them into my ranks and the pikemen engage with their secondary weapons).

I have a similar issue with cavalry, except at the opposite end of the spectrum. Despite having loads of space to charge across, my cavalry rarely decides to mount an actual charge; when they do, they break off the charge well before they've reached the target and then proceed to march into the enemy.

For this reason, I prefer straight-up heavy infantry or heavy spearmen. Even if they do refuse to charge, or start to and later decide they just don't feel like it, they do plenty of damage by just being engaged. I know, this part of the discussion isn't really relevant, but I've gone off on my tangent anyway and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

[Tankbustaz]

I always remove their secondary weapons. It makes them far more useful. I find them to be crucial while playing as dwarves, especially dwarves of the Orocarni mountains. You need something to stop the drakes.

[the lightning legion]

cant help with much but to change the availability go to export_descr_building in the third age data folder find gondor infantry and remove the And not hidden resource requirement for pelargir and dol amroth that should allow regular gondor infantry to be made but I personally advise against doing so otherwise those units will never get used and the game will feel a bit thin having units you never use

[Cirion]

Thanks for all the replies.

I'll sum all i wanna say as short as i can.

Ulfguard i'm pretty sure Winged Swordsmen are only trainable in both Osgiliaths and Minas Tirith and even if Fountain Guards are available everywhere(not sure to be honest)it requires Huge city to build and Umbar is the only other option within reach to make them.Barad-dur maybe?

And thanks i'll give PCP a go.

I determine the strength of a faction by several factors-the type of units they can recruit,what those units do(and what are they good for-it's a different thing)and how often i can recruit them.

In the case of Gondor we have many unique units,some of which very strong,but mostly unavailable due to hard recruitment,retraining and sometimes even upkeep(never was a problem for me,but it's still something)and so on.I made comparison with Rhun for the following reasons(again it's about personal view)

I think we can all agree that amongst the human factions Gondor and Arnor should field the best heavy infantry,right?I am perfectly fine with where their archers and cavalry stand.

If you take in consideration all of the factors that make Gondor a military force you understand that you have powerful infantry...with limited use.
Like trap cards...you use them and then you have to wait a looong cooldown to make proper use of those guys again.So instead you use replacers,which are simply not as good (In most cases Gondor Infantry)to fill the gap created.It's not that the unit is bad,it's simply a bit above average.

In comparison factions like Rhun have it all.
I can create a certain unit.I know it's powerful.I can recruit it everywhere,retrain it much more often and in general stick with it and have no problems.
It's not like i make Fountain Guard which for example i use to counter Trolls and can't use it again for various reasons like being unable to retrain or being too far away or whatever.
So my best(once you recruit them you use them all the time) and even middle range Rhun units are good enough counter for middle and average Gondor units which they will use most of the time.

Not only that,but as Rhun i have so much variety i can use more than one tactic against my enemies.
My Infantry (Rhun)is bad?Well i have skirmishers that actually skirmish unlike the Pelargir Marines.-The Balcoth
So even if Rhun didn't have good heavy infantry to counter the dwarves with hammer and anvil tactics,they can use heavy archers instead(not quite the same,but still much better than gondorian heavy archers),horse archers,light archers and skirmishers.I forgot i you spam heavy cavalry too actually.No matter how strong a unit(okay not counting monsters)no one can survive three sided heavy cavalry charge without breaking.
No other faction has so many choices.

So Gondor has the best infantry only on paper.Rhun has very,very slightly weaker infantry,but all the time AND with much greater options due to unit variety.
I don't even wanna go to the flamethrower script Rhun have.It's ridiculous.If that does not help poor Rhun counter those pesky Dwarves despite all their other advantages i don't know what will.

Honestly so many letters i think i might actually become writer or something.

To give example of lack of balance in vanilla,Bladvak?Well i began with Gondor so let's continue.

In vanilla that very same Gondor Infantry again was hard to recruit,had big upkeep and imho was not worth the cost.
It had hard time beating(don't remember even if it could) Uruk Halberdiers or whatever it was the name.Indeed something of an elite unit for Mordor,but with armor piercing,larger unit count and less upkeep.Not cost effective,but the only reliable option to atleast put those Uruks in place waiting for that cavalry charge in the back.Not good enough for a faction claiming to have some of the best heavy infantry.

I have no claims to be great player,but i believe i am somewhat decent,though.
Isenguard does not need to march over Rohan to attack Gondor.It's enough to take their western settlements which it does more often than not(if not all the time)

If i use Dol Amroth units to invade Isenguard i'm screwing myself.Why not quickly rush them with regular(and retrainable units),capture a fortress or something and quickly build Libraries to increase my culture and eventually reuse those regulars?

About the improvised modder discussion i was trying to be funny.Unfortunately i am one of those guys that get more often laughed at than the other way around so i troll the forums in desperate hope to get attention.(I don't need to point i was joking,right?)

About the work being done on those special units as i said in my first post i appreciate it.But there is a fine line between choice of variety and variety of choice.
I am actually rereading to book just now and it was it that got my attention back the mod.Those people in the book looked more to me like a quickly assembled militias assembled out of desperation rather than proffesionals.Maybe except the people from Dol Amroth.

The problem is these units(with the exceptions in my first post) are not adding anything new to the game.They are somehow useful for the early game.(Personally i rush Harad with cavalry generals,so no use for me).Most are just reskinned troops with weaker stats.Burden later on.

If they were something i really lacked as Gondor general(like skirmish cavalry-they would be welcome addition.(but will still make depend on unique troops which is bad)
If i could train regulars along with them(seriously why not?) i would be perfectly fine.

I made comparison for Rhunic pikemen to show something.
Pike units are supposed to be almost invulnerable to front charges by both infantry and cavalry.In medieval times units with very long spears were good at this(Scottish people were pros i believe),but vulnerable to ranged units,since most of the times they lacked shields and/or good armor.

If someone wants to mention macedonian phalanx -please don't ,it's not the same thing even if they are similarities.

My point was that compared to other pike units(excluding the above mentioned Noldor and Fountain guard troops-both limited in recruitment)that armor weakness is next to no existent.That makes them much harder to bring down by afar and somewhat overpowered(Too good stats-if they were simple spearmen,without Spear Wall i'm fine).

About combining archers,cavalry and infantry and so on i can manage,but thanks for the tip.

Let me clear it -I have no problems beating the game or having issues with certain enemies.It's just that my favorite faction is just not quite what it should be.I suppose if someone replies he'll take the above quote out of context because it has happened on some of the above posts,but it's the truth.I don't want it overpowered just because i play it.

[Cirion]

So many mistakes and errors in spelling in punctuation and i can't even edit my posts for some reason.Real shame that.

[Ngugi]

So many mistakes and errors in spelling in punctuation and i can't even edit my posts for some reason.Real shame that.

You must have 25 posts before you can edit posts

[Cirion]

I installed MOS back and it seems i've been wrong.
Confusing Loke-Gamp(that have the spear wall) with other Loke's which do have armor penetration.
My bad so i had to correct myself.
Stats still are too high for a pikeman/halberdier though.

[Romaneck]

I guess ill pitch in (MOS balance)

I have to say Rhûn is a horribly overpowered faction, they got great elite units, skirmishers on foot and on horse they are far, far away from any enemies and have mines and an awesome bodyguard that can crush rebels on their own and feel more like lesser Nazguls than human generals

Someone said that they need all that armor piercing to counter the dwarves, which is funny when you consider that the main enemy of the dwarves (that being the Orcs of the Misty Mountain) have 1 armor piercing unit in their whole arsenal and it is the goblin halberdiers that come only later on.

If were talking about Balance something should be done for the OotMM, their rooster is terribly limited and their elite unit is one lousy troll, it feels like a poor man´s Mordor or a weaker OoG, I mean gundabad has better trolls, better infantry, access to more human units and all togheter a more flexible rooster.

I know it would need mountains of work but OoG should be an orcs and men faction while OotMM should be goblins and trolls one.

Also while were on it, I gotta say the Riders of the Westfold are... an interesting unit

They are begging to be abused, they have a reasonable upkeep but lo and behold they have AP, are on horse, can be recruited anywere and have about the same stats that the riders of rohan do.

Now these boys carried me the whole game, they chewed through Nazguls, trolls, bodyguards younameit as if they were nothing, as Rohan heavily armored enemies where a goodamn nightmare, you needed the AoR riddermark axemen which could not be fielded anywere or your rohan axemen that with only 2 of damage were the laughingstock of middle earth

But the Riders of the westfold, are pretty much riddermark axemen on horse and without the AoR.

Im not complaining (well I am pointing it out) because Rohan really needs lategame AP, but maybe switch the westfold riders being AoR and the Riddermark axemen now being recruitable everywere, frankly I felt dirty when I used the Westfoldians

[Principe Alessandro]

Regarding the Rhunic "pikemen" in reality they are halberds with a pike animation which makes no sense at all, the pike animation is really fast because has only stabbing motions while a normal halberd unit swings the weapon too. I have altered a little bit my EDU in order to balance and fix some oddities with pike and halberd units like for example uruk-hai pikemen swinging their pike like a halberd. Also about some units like the fountain guard having the AP attribute makes sense since they have a polearm weapon, it doesn't make sense for a unit having a sword or a pike. Regarding the Gondor fiefdom units I have no real clue because I play mainly the elvish factions but I think that it makes sense if it is lore-friendly.

[Arachir Galudirithon]

I have read through the whole thread and see you have had little response in terms of making the changes yourself. If you do want a hand in getting to know how to alter a unit as you see fit, then you are more than welcome to ask me for help. I work on the soon-to-be released DaC mod and have literally 'lived' in the relevant files for quite some time before joining DaC.

It is very easy to change units to your liking but as Bladvak says, getting full balance across the board is a real work of art often taking weeks and weeks of tiny changes here and there to adjust units. All the same though, if you want to learn how to change units, I am willing to help. As you say, there are sometimes oversights that just bug you and you want to be fixed, like the spearmen/infantry stamina thing or when units with identical armour have massively different values et cetera.

On a side note, I agree whole heartedly with Bladvak's point regarding the recruitment system of Gondor, they are meant to rely heavily on their fiefdoms and they don't have a conventional 'standing army' just pockets of resistance: Ithilien Rangers for example, or Angbor and the men of Lamedon holding fighting in the south to hold back Harad.

You seem to disagree with Rhun a great deal, or at least their unit stats but sadly, if they don't have AP, then the dwarves just walk all over them (even more than they already do). This comes to bite others in the bud when their armies leave the East but then that is another layer of the fun of the game. Starting from Lore then expanding into a whole different potential reality.

Oh and lastly, you can't edit posts until you have reached a certain number (I think 25), it is to stop spammers posting a mundane post that avoids detection then editting it with spam and what not.

Post Script: Nice Avatar.

[the lightning legion]

I think they did a good job with gondor they are relatively powerful but they aren't what they once were just like it was supposed to be in the lore if this was gondor about a thousand years ago the rhunic units would have no chance

that said I wouldn't discount the possibility that they ere nerfed for the local balance of power if the were s strong as their legacy implies then entire stacks would be powerless to stop them morder would repelling hordes of gondor infantry instead of pushing back gondor to the brink