Tension in Turkey's AKP core

[Tureuki]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tur...&NewsCatID=338

Erdoğan is going to close prep schools which was one of the main income sources and centers of brainwashing of Gülen and other religious movements(Cemaat) which is outraged them, they make a significiant part of the AKP's core, now AKP voters are splitted to Erdogan fan boys and hardcore Cemaat members, seemingly followers of same path now furiously quarelling and even threatening each other, there are rumors about if Erdoğan goes into it, Gülen may put someone else againts him Cemaat votes might slip from Erdogan, what you guys think, would that effect AKP's seemingly uncontested series of victory ?

[Odenat]

Nope, without an opposition, AKP's victory is secure.

CHP is totally clueless of making politics, MHP is a joke for a nationalist party. This leave only AKP as the main contester. Even secular peoples are voting for AKP because we all can see that a CHP or MHP government will be a disaster.

[white-wolf]

Nope, without an opposition, AKP's victory is secure.

CHP is totally clueless of making politics, MHP is a joke for a nationalist party. This leave only AKP as the main contester. Even secular peoples are voting for AKP because we all can see that a CHP or MHP government will be a disaster.

This.

[Tureuki]

I'm not talking about CHP and MHP, a new side put againts Erdoğan by Cemaat.

Cemaat and AKP probably has lots of cards to play againts each other, there is already talks about some "tapes", if its continues like this one side will most likely lose a huge chunk of its repuation and leave the politics, may be its the aim of Erdoğan ? may be he decided he has enough power now and wants to remove Cemaat's influence over AKP and government, which as we can see can easily turn againts him when he does something they don't like.

[Odenat]

I'm not talking about CHP and MHP, a new side put againts Erdoğan by Cemaat.

You asked if "that effect AKP's seemingly uncontested series of victory". Well, if there's no opposition, how can something will affect AKPs uncontested series of victory? My father is a full secular guy who hates every headscarf wearing women, still he says he'll cut his hand instead of voting for CHP again. Now, how can you expect AKP to be defeated with those kind of attitude?

How come it wasn't in the past?

It was. Don't you remember the last time they were the ruling party. Ecevit, on the verge of death, was destroying Turkish economy. Turkish PM could not remember his own name but he was still continuing to rule? Actually, it was his men ruling in his name, of course. The president throwing (literally !) the law book to the head of Ecevit? TL losing 50% of its value in one day? Millions getting jobless, hungry ? One of the ruling party leaders (Yılmaz) going abroad every weekend to play poker?

We are such a powerful nation that even a 4 year CHP-MHP coalition could not bring us down lol Still no reason to repeat that mistake.

[PointOfViewGun]

It was. Don't you remember the last time they were the ruling party. Ecevit, on the verge of death, was destroying Turkish economy. Turkish PM could not remember his own name but he was still continuing to rule? Actually, it was his men ruling in his name, of course. The president throwing (literally !) the law book to the head of Ecevit? TL losing 50% of its value in one day? Millions getting jobless, hungry ? One of the ruling party leaders (Yılmaz) going abroad every weekend to play poker?

We are such a powerful nation that even a 4 year CHP-MHP coalition could not bring us down lol Still no reason to repeat that mistake.

I also remember that PKK was practically over by 2002 and investments even in the Southeastern Turkey was on the rise. Today, it's only as if the Marmara region exists and AKP feeds of mostly from the projects of the pre-AKP times. They could as well do what AKP does in the long-term and provide a cosmetic economy where they sell everything but that would be a real disaster. AKP could turn around the economy in the short-term because of what the coalition did in the past but those policies should have been short-term, yet, they're using them in the long-term which is setting up a real disaster. Back then, we had separation of powers as well. In many ways, people were more free. Turkey would certainly a more democratic country with higher quality economy if AKP didn't win over.

Mesut Yılmaz's trips or Bülent Ecevit's condition doesn't make a disaster. We have far worse people ruling Turkey today. How come that doesn't make a disaster? 2001 financial crisis was mostly driven by public distrust. In 2000, GDP growth was 6.77%. At the time of the crisis it was -5.7% but just the next year in 2002 it was 6.16%. AKP had nothing to do with that growth. They simply showed at the exact moment that things were turning around and they merely added little more cosmetics through short-term policies.


How are we such a powerful nation? What is it that we're capable of? I bet most of the things you can come up with either has its roots on the projects of the coalition governments of the past (such as military advancements) or are simply a product of natural development of a country (such as importing of media products).

There is also a huge irony of supporting AKP but loathing CHP. When AKP was created it was basically created out of CHP, DSP, MHP, etc. I see it as getting rid of the dirt and naivety.

[PointOfViewGun]

There has been talks of a new party being created from AKP with Abdullah Gül leading it. It might become true by next year after all. What's obvious is that AKP and the Fetullah Gülen's coven are getting separated. It's completely fitting that the trouble arises from cram schools. They're one of the major income sources for the coven. They should be gone for many academic reasons but the reason AKP is trying to change them is to get the income of the coven to decrease.

CHP is totally clueless of making politics, MHP is a joke for a nationalist party. This leave only AKP as the main contester. Even secular peoples are voting for AKP because we all can see that a CHP or MHP government will be a disaster.

How come it wasn't in the past?

[Tureuki]

Well answer is in my post isn't it ? I'm not talking about CHP or MHP, a new opposition created by Cemaat againts AKP, thought they might try to cooperate with an existing party as well, anyway Cemaat has the potential to steal a part of AKP votes, they can't win but can still damage AKP, though both sides probably has cards to play againts each other, having the government AKP has upper hand, if things goes out of line, AKP might even put some crimes over(ones they probably covered until now) Cemaat and directly declare war.

[Odenat]

It has been 10 years that AKP is in government. Saying that huge railway projects or Marmaray etc. belongs to the coalition government is totally funny. Around me, even secular people are saying that "AKP is working well" or "Things are better now then 10 years ago". Do you really believe that 55% of Turkey wants sharia? Nope, they are voting for AKP because they are happy with their lifes and do not trust the other parties. And, that has been 10 years and we are still waiting for sharia to come and destroy all of us. Meanwhile, Erdoğan makes a trip to Anıtkabir and asks for every school children to visit there and other important places of our independance war.

Now what's the issue ? Isn't it the happiness of Turkish people, that we are well fed, well educated, that we have hope for the future? If the people is happy, they will vote for the government, cemaat wants it or not. I think Gulen Cemaat can only directly affects 1% of the votes and with a charismatic Erdoğan, AKP will win every time. You like him or not, he's one of the most important leaders of Turkish people (by the way, i vote for CHP) He changed both secular and religious communities and nothing will be the same for both side from now on.

Actually, the only problem that i see is what happens to Turkish states whenever a sultan dies. AKP does not have somebody to replace Erdoğan when he dies, so there's a big probability of in-fighting. And that's only when CHP or MHP would have a chance of winning an election.

[PointOfViewGun]

It has been 10 years that AKP is in government. Saying that huge railway projects or Marmaray etc. belongs to the coalition government is totally funny. Around me, even secular people are saying that "AKP is working well" or "Things are better now then 10 years ago". Do you really believe that 55% of Turkey wants sharia? Nope, they are voting for AKP because they are happy with their lifes and do not trust the other parties. And, that has been 10 years and we are still waiting for sharia to come and destroy all of us. Meanwhile, Erdoğan makes a trip to Anıtkabir and asks for every school children to visit there and other important places of our independance war.

Now what's the issue ? Isn't it the happiness of Turkish people, that we are well fed, well educated, that we have hope for the future? If the people is happy, they will vote for the government, cemaat wants it or not. I think Gulen Cemaat can only directly affects 1% of the votes and with a charismatic Erdoğan, AKP will win every time. You like him or not, he's one of the most important leaders of Turkish people (by the way, i vote for CHP) He changed both secular and religious communities and nothing will be the same for both side from now on.

Actually, the only problem that i see is what happens to Turkish states whenever a sultan dies. AKP does not have somebody to replace Erdoğan when he dies, so there's a big probability of in-fighting. And that's only when CHP or MHP would have a chance of winning an election.

Funny of you to mention Marmaray. The project itself started in 1985 with the feasibility study. The first grant for the project was also signed by the coalition government in 2000. This was even in the news couple of months ago with Oktay Vural showing the documents. Similarly, the laying of rails for the high speed train line between Istanbul-Eskişehir-Ankara started in 2003. That means that the project also started long before AKP came. MILGEM project was also started in 2000.

How is AKP working well? They're working. I'll give you that but the quality is awful. What everyone is forced to say about AKP is "they steal but they work". We saw how the buses that they paid millions for have been breaking down even in the first day. Yes, we have more ambulances, taking you to hospitals owned by Erdoğan's wife with a total debt that dwarves anything Turkey endured in the past. It didn't even take one year for parts of their double roads to collapse. In almost everything they do a friend of theirs is making more money on the project than they should and the projects are often designed to fail in a few years to make more money. That's why almost in every 2 years Istiklal street gets remade. Taksim square leaks down to subway. They're gonna have to remake parts of it again. Both Istanbul and Ankara, AKP governed cities, failed in advancing their subway projects and the directorate of highways had to step in and build it for them. On the other hand, Izmir, a CHP governing city, build it through its own funds.

If Turkey's economy is really that good compared to ten years ago, how is it that we're still using one of the most expensive oil in the world?

I never said AKP wants Sharia. Please don't make up stuff that I didn't argue. Focus on what I'm saying. AKP is a populist party. If they thought that they'd be more rich they'd convert to Christianity. Their core values have no morals. That's why you don't really see them making a big deal out of child rape or marriage cases.

Happiness? Whose happy? The journalists or army officers in prison under forged documents? The farmers? The factory workers? What is it that people are happy about? Personal freedoms? The situation with our neighbors (even Azerbaijan)? Entry exams to universities? Oil prices? Taxes?

Gülen coven probably has an influence in the range of 15-20%. I know a number of his supporters personally and had to work with them in the past. They're not 1%. Though, if they had a party of their own their votes wouldn't go over 5%. So, they prefer to support a party rather than forming one of their own.

I'm not a CHP voter but I did vote for them once and Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu made me question all the claims made by others about them.

[Tureuki]

I thought AKP voters were stopped making fun of people in recent years who says AKP wants sharia or an at least highly religious oriented state ? in early years of AKP you could say that, AKP was indeed acting liberal, bu no longer, having enough power they no longer hide their intents, you have to be blind if you didn't realized.

It doesn't matter what majority of voters thinks, whats important is what ruling elite thinks, they can do whatever they want(well, at least most of them) and then can easily manipulate the people, AKP is indeed master at this.

Edit: Indeed, there is only Erdoğan, if he goes no one can replace him, rest of high ranking AKP members are just passive, loyal dogs, may be Gül but he doesn't have the same potential.

[Odenat]

Here's Turkey's GDP values. Look what happened to the chart after 2002. Look at the situation of Iran (full of oil) and Greece (supported by all of the Western and Russian bloc). That's the answer to all your questions.

You say nobody is happy, still can not explain how AKP gets 50%. You say that Marmaray project started at 1985. It went nowhere at 20 years then AKP completed it in 10 years. We must give that to AKP; they get things done.

I'll also prefer a CHP or MHP government which is successful. We can all see that AKP is populist and i agree with you when you say they will convert to Christianity if that was more advantegeous. But, still they are the more successful government we got since Özal's first term.

Of course there are issues. And most of all, Turkey does not have enough resources to finance its own projects. We need to pay huge oil bills and it's becoming more burdensome as long as our economy grow. But, is any other party have a solution for this? nope? Like you, all they do is complain, complain and more complain.

Meanwhile, AKP tries to do something. GDP is growing, projects are being completing etc. etc. Of course, they suck in some areas but still, they are better than the others.

http://www.google.com.tr/publicdata/...ry:TUR:IRN:GRC

[PointOfViewGun]

Here's Turkey's GDP values. Look what happened to the chart after 2002. Look at the situation of Iran (full of oil) and Greece (supported by all of the Western and Russian bloc). That's the answer to all your questions.

You say nobody is happy, still can not explain how AKP gets 50%. You say that Marmaray project started at 1985. It went nowhere at 20 years then AKP completed it in 10 years. We must give that to AKP; they get things done.

I'll also prefer a CHP or MHP government which is successful. We can all see that AKP is populist and i agree with you when you say they will convert to Christianity if that was more advantegeous. But, still they are the more successful government we got since Özal's first term.

Of course there are issues. And most of all, Turkey does not have enough resources to finance its own projects. We need to pay huge oil bills and it's becoming more burdensome as long as our economy grow. But, is any other party have a solution for this? nope? Like you, all they do is complain, complain and more complain.

Meanwhile, AKP tries to do something. GDP is growing, projects are being completing etc. etc. Of course, they suck in some areas but still, they are better than the others.

http://www.google.com.tr/publicdata/...ry:TUR:IRN:GRC

Interesting how the rise starts at the time the coalition government was in power and how there is still a dive larger than anything the coalition government saw. Iran have been undergoing economic sanctions and in the case of Greece AKP government is pushing us closer to that by running high deficits and rising debt. Covering couple of billions of debt to IMF while having hundreds of billions of debt in total is not an accomplishment.

So, you can't acknowledge that you were simply wrong and that there are many projects from the coalition era that AKP just benefited from and moving the goal post? You have no idea about the feasibility and other studies to make such a project possible (Marmaray). AKP never had to map the sea bed and choose a path for the tunnel. The bulk of the project was done before AKP. Projects like Marmaray don't take few years to be accomplished.

A lot of people give in to the fake sense of security of the cosmetic economy and that's why they've been getting 50%. AKP have also been very efficient at vilifying the opponents. They created the question in people's mind to ask what others have been doing in the last decade when in fact other parties didn't have any legislature power. AKP also made sure that what little other parties managed to do with almost nonexistent resources to be ignored. Controlling the entire media sort of helps that.

Did you even check if other parties have a solution? Why should they even give out their cards? AKP did a lot of what CHP promised before the elections after the elections and claimed them as its own projects. As expected they performed those projects in the worst possible ways. But, why don't you look at what they did so far? I already gave you the example of Izmir which managed to fund its own subway project without the help of the central government. It's a miracle given how AKP government have been trying to suck them dry of any money they have.

CHP probably provides more detail about their solutions than AKP does. We still don't know what the hell the "democratic" package that is called "açılım" means or promises. How are we supposed to talk about solutions when people are oblivious to the problems anyway?

Turkey does not have resources to fund its own project. The government depends on loans. Last time I heard, their loans for the 3rd bridge was in jeopardy. Erdoğan asked Garanti for a $5 billion loan and Şahenk responded by saying that the bank would go bankrupt if they gave the loan. No, I did not read that online. It comes directly from the source... If Turkey managed to fund project by itself the government wouldn't be selling possessions like there is no tomorrow with less than ideal prices. If that's the case why do taxes still go up? What was the point of that huge tax increase for luxury cars? 2 years ago they even initiated a social security scheme that forced you to pay for social security if you're not working and have a family income of more than the minimum wage. Why? Because they can't pay for all that price drop they went ahead with drugs.

Is it strange that you're getting more and more vague and generalizing as I specifically address the issues you refer to?

[Nesimî]

We have corrupt conservatives incumbent, and two racist parties waiting to replace them. Someone found a green party or something, I feel like hugging a tree.

[Odenat]

Is it strange that you're getting more and more vague and generalizing as I specifically address the issues you refer to?

loool, i gave you GDP numbers, i gave you projects. But, for everything AKP accomplished, you find some excuse. And you say " A lot of people give in to the fake sense of security of the cosmetic economy and that's why they've been getting 50%". ffs, they are getting 50% and you say "A lot of people give in to the fake sense of security of the cosmetic economy" !!!!

So, they have a "cosmetic" economy which runs good for 10 years, GDP becoming 2 times greater in 10 years, many projects completed ... And, they are still failures ??? And, here you go, i'm the "vague" one. Please, tell me of one successful thing that the coalition government did, out of destroying Turkish economy and we'll know why we'll have to vote for them again.

Istanbul and Ankara municipalities also complete their projects with their own resources. You give the example of İzmir, but each city is getting similar help from the government. We have rules and laws, you know? Here i give you a link of what each municipality is getting from state. Izmir is getting as much as Ankara, the capital of the state !!!! Of course, CHP cries saying that they are not getting anything. That give an excuse to them for their failures.

http://www.samsunanaliz.com/ekonomi/...ldi-h3253.html

We have corrupt conservatives incumbent, and two racist parties waiting to replace them. Someone found a green party or something, I feel like hugging a tree.

Amen to that. I really don't understand why we don't have a green party. With the number of young voters, that can be a good alternative to these right wings party (and CHP who says it's left-wing but in reality is an extreme right wing party )

[PointOfViewGun]

loool, i gave you GDP numbers, i gave you projects. But, for everything AKP accomplished, you find some excuse. And you say " A lot of people give in to the fake sense of security of the cosmetic economy and that's why they've been getting 50%". ffs, they are getting 50% and you say "A lot of people give in to the fake sense of security of the cosmetic economy" !!!!

So, they have a "cosmetic" economy which runs good for 10 years, GDP becoming 2 times greater in 10 years, many projects completed ... And, they are still failures ??? And, here you go, i'm the "vague" one. Please, tell me of one successful thing that the coalition government did, out of destroying Turkish economy and we'll know why we'll have to vote for them again.

Istanbul and Ankara municipalities also complete their projects with their own resources. You give the example of İzmir, but each city is getting similar help from the government. We have rules and laws, you know? Here i give you a link of what each municipality is getting from state. Izmir is getting as much as Ankara, the capital of the state !!!! Of course, CHP cries saying that they are not getting anything. That give an excuse to them for their failures.

http://www.samsunanaliz.com/ekonomi/...ldi-h3253.html

Is the ignorance of these points due to a new found liking of AKP or simply a product of your dislike of being shown to be wrong? You have yet to acknowledge how the projects you attributed to AKP. Marmaray is case in point. You did mention railway projects and Marmaray but the moment I explain to you when they were started and how they progressed you dismiss the Marmaray project by making a very ignorant point and say that the project did not progress in 20 years before AKP (which ignores important and timely phases like feasibility and route studies). Don't give me project or GDP numbers if you're gonna ignore them the moment I address them. So far, you haven't been able to go beyond calling what I say as "giving excuses".

What the coalition government did that was good? You mentioned GDP numbers. Did you not see GDP going up even at a time of economic crisis? Their investments was much more spread through out Turkey. Today people hardly remember the GAP project. Previous governments created that to provide over 4 million jobs and rejuvenate farming in Turkey. Yes, today we have more wineries but the general situation of farmers is deplorable. I already mentioned that PKK was practically gone by 2002. We already touched a number of projects that they seeded in various fields. While looking at projects in Turkey I even realized that road projects like Izmir-Ankara highway was initiated by Ecevit with him to sign the first funding in 2001.

You talk as if they killed the Turkish economy though. While you make many claims you don't necessarily substantiate them. I assume you fell for the same villification of past governments that AKP have been successfully doing and something I fell around 2005. So, tell us. What was it that they did that tanked the economy?

Similar help? A city like Izmir, a trade and tourism port, is getting less than Ankara, in the middle of Turkey with no function other than housing the government, even though they have similar population sizes. It's ironic of you to provide such numbers. There are many examples of how Izmir is being treated differently. Despite all the difference Izmir subway system is still similar in length to Ankara subway system. Izmir paid everything through the money it got from the government as all cities get for normal functions. Istanbul and Ankara couldn't and their subway project had to separated from those government allowances to those cities. Do you understand the difference?

Where is Green Party, you know tree huggers, from the Gezi Parkcis? Oh wait %78 of Gezicis are Alevies and vote for CHP already.

Because police's report on Gezi is such a reliable source? You do realize that if 78 percent of participants were Alevis then that even Alevi babies participated in the protests to make up for the population requirement?

[Odenat]

Is the ignorance of these points due to a new found liking of AKP or simply a product of your dislike of being shown to be wrong? You have yet to acknowledge how the projects you attributed to AKP. Marmaray is case in point. You did mention railway projects and Marmaray but the moment I explain to you when they were started and how they progressed you dismiss the Marmaray project by making a very ignorant point and say that the project did not progress in 20 years before AKP (which ignores important and timely phases like feasibility and route studies). Don't give me project or GDP numbers if you're gonna ignore them the moment I address them.

oh yeah, so the coalition government did feasibility. Very difficult work for them Meanwhile AKP did everything else, including funding and contracting. If the coalition goverment was still here, the project was still ongoing.

http://www.marmaray.com/html/general.html

What was it that they did that tanked the economy?

You answer a question with a question ? Very good ... I don't care what they did, they destroyed the economy. And don't say they were not responsible, they were the government for 5 years by then, so they are responsible. And, the raise of 2002 GDP? When you hit rock bottom, you bounce a little. And, here is the situation at 2001 : . Stocks plummeted and the interest rate reached 3,000%, Large quantities of lira were exchanged for dollars or euro, causing the Turkish Central bank to lose $5 billion of its reserves. In the first eight months of 2001, 14,875 jobs were lost, the dollar rose to 1,500,000 liras, and income inequality had risen from its already high level

Similar help? A city like Izmir, a trade and tourism port, is getting less than Ankara, in the middle of Turkey with no function other than housing the government, even though they have similar population sizes. It's ironic of you to provide such numbers. There are many examples of how Izmir is being treated differently. Despite all the difference Izmir subway system is still similar in length to Ankara subway system. Izmir paid everything through the money it got from the government as all cities get for normal functions. Istanbul and Ankara couldn't and their subway project had to separated from those government allowances to those cities. Do you understand the difference?

So, you say that the capital of Turkey is useless ? Ankara have 5 million habitant and Izmir 3 million ! (at 2000) How can you say they have a similar population sizes ??? It's ironic of you to try change the facts that everybody knows. Ankara's population is 40% bigger and it only gets 10% more than İzmir. And İzmir's municipality is expected to have a huge income already because İzmir is a trade and tourism port. Where is the money ? You also forget to write that Izmir metro is not advancing for years and people are protesting it.

Anyway, i'm the last person to support an AKP government as i don't like them but still, we need to accept they are successful in many areas. And by the way, our glorious left wing CHP leader just went to USA and is in talks with, guess what, Cemaat !

At least, we know what AKP and Erdoğan is. With a party like CHP, what happened to Greece will happen to us quickly .

http://siyaset.milliyet.com.tr/-chp-...?ref=OtherNews

[Heinz Guderian]

I think you people (Turks) need to realise that Erdogan has probably been your greatest leader since Suleiman. I liked Bayezid, but ever since hearing about that Timurlane thing, i went a bit cool on him. Even though i dont like the man, Ataturk was pretty effective. But Erdogan has dragged you people kicking and screaming into regional economic and military power statushood. Maybe time for you people to show some gratitude?

[white-wolf]

Where is Green Party, you know tree huggers, from the Gezi Parkcis? Oh wait %78 of Gezicis are Alevies and vote for CHP already.

[white-wolf]

It is open secret that Gezicis were mostly Alevies and Marginal far-left organisations. That is the ones who entered clashes with the security forces. And, oh yes, we should trust the reports of who burn shops and busses more than the police's report. Right!