how to fight with balanced armies

[zikan42]

since in medieval 2 the game will encourage people to buy a huge variety of units, can somebody explain me how to use such armies effectively? In rome, I would just get the best units- all heavy infantry, with maybe 4 of the best archers and about 3 heavy cavalry. I would always win the same way, with the battle line in the middle, and the same old flanking on the sides. This really gets boring...

So now that its beneficial to buy such things as light infantry (money wise), how can I use these units? Lets say I have 50% light and 50% heavy infantry, what the hell do I do with half of my army? They cant hold the line against spearmen of other heavies, there is not enough heavies to hold the battle line...

additional question- what would be the basic setup of an ordinary army back then? Did they have balanced armies like that, or did they strive for the best (although smaller) armies?

[Xiaodun]

In Earlier Medieval times (in an Anglo-French model of armies), most armies tended to be formed around a center of knights, covered by mounted sergants (lighter shock cavalry), and then they were helped screened by a scattering of variously armed foot levies. When proffessional disipline in armies were rare except in the East, the heavier cavalry could scatter enemy infantry with ease.

However, during the High Middle Ages, infantry became far more potent. Frederick Barbarossa's cavalry was defeated by Italian infantry, Crusaders learnt the potential of crossbows against Turk horsearchers (leading to their wider use throughout Europe), and a horde of French knights were slaughtered with the help of concentrated English longbow fire. Although the feudal system never had the power to create a proffesionally organized army (usually taking levies and mercenaries of whatever is available), they had some variety between troops later in the age.

Lighter infantry is quite useful. Put them up in front of your heavy infantry line and have them spray the enemy army untill the enemy spearline comes close. Then retreat your lighter infantry behind your spears, then position them behind the enemy troops, and keep spraying them with missiles. They can cause some heavy damage, and when the enemy routs, they can easily chase down the slower enemy heavies

[sparks]

as far as rome, calvary generally are better than infantry, that is why if you've ever been on the forums people always complained about the power of the cataphact and roman calvary, it was justified too, spartan phalanx's will be defeated by a head on charge of cataphact calvary if they draw there swords.
and spartans cost pretty much the same, have more men, each man has 2 hp so it takes two hits to kill instead of 1, and there a phalanx fighting calvary head on,

as far as uses of other units
light infantry have specific tasks,
as far as what to do with them in mtw2
place them in between stakes, light infantry shouldnt rely on formations so the break up doesnt really hurt them, against enemy calvary with the aid of the stakes they will stop any attempt by calvary to get through even by walking without commiting an expensive heavy unit to stop something that may never happen, if enemy infantry or calvary attempt to get through, since calvary hopefully wont be able to charge or do so against stakes without taking huge casualties (this is a hope) and since even the best infantry wont be able to defeat them in seconds, you can use the light infantry to hold and once there charge is lost and there engaged you can call up reinforcements such as pikemen or billmen to hide behind the LI and poke them to death, or attack with calvary or any number of options, once they flee theres a nice fast moving infantry unit to chase them.

even peasents have there uses, i use them all the time if i'm rushing, a unit of peasents will absorb every last arrow fired if i have it lead the charge, by the time the enemy player switches target i'm on them and its too late for free kills.
they can also be used to absorb enemy calvary charges so that they waste there charge bonus on the peasents and now hard infantry are fresh and ready to kill them.
peasents can also now be used in mtw2 to man castles since now the castle defense's only work with a unit nearby they can man them and free up good units. light infantry or bowmen would also fill this role well.

you can use hide anywhere units among the stakes or on the flanks of stakes also to suprise calvary attempting to walk through or go around.

you can use elephants to defeat enemy calvary on the flanks they dominate calvary.

light calvary is best for engaging enemy archers, horse archers, and of course chasing fleeing troops.
light calvary with high charge bonus's make for good flankers, as long as there charge bonus is high enough the damage they do when flanking an already engaged unit can allow them to break it so fast it doesnt fight back, there faster speed allows them to get there sooner, and there lower price saves you money for better units in multiplayer, and in single player often you can get an excellent unit of light calvary much earlier than heavy calvary(minus your generals bodyguard units)

horse archers that cantabarian circle dominate archers, they can also be used to shoot at calvary, the calvary will chase them, but if your horse archers are fast moving they won't catch them, they'll only tire themselves, light calvary will be really hurt by the arrows, and heavy calvary, well there not that hurt but often the enemy reacts anyways and tries to stop you from firing, tiring some of there best and most expensive units.

artillery can force the enemy to attack you, placing you on the defensive, which generally gets you kills with your archers as they move up, tires them, and makes there moving line hit a solid line, its just easier to defend.

against middle eastern nations, 3 heavy calvary, and 4 archers would not be that effective, or shouldnt anyways.
horse archers if they can cantabarian circle dominate foot archers, heavy calvary is good and very powerful but lacks endurance,
what i mean is a unit of urban cohorts in rome would fight often while surrounded, they would absorb a calvary charge, if they were half dead and still fight back, calvary in rome routed quicker once the battle they were fighting turned against them, several infantry just didn't care they would fight down to 20 men left regardless of whether they were surrounded or outnumbered or fighting a better quality unit.



i think that covers most of the non heavy units.
if you think of a unit or a unit type i havent covered let me know and i'll try to give you ideas of when to use them.

[Ringeck]

In Earlier Medieval times (in an Anglo-French model of armies), most armies tended to be formed around a center of knights, covered by mounted sergants (lighter shock cavalry), and then they were helped screened by a scattering of variously armed foot levies. When proffessional disipline in armies were rare except in the East, the heavier cavalry could scatter enemy infantry with ease.

Well, infantry could also be well trained in early medieval armies: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=795307
My post there quotes a 9th century Ottonian source.

I don't think M2TW players can draw all that much from historical examples, as some tactics can't be modelled well. Very broadly: Early medieval armies of the type fielded by the franks, anglo-saxons and scandinavians were typically infantry-based until well into the 10th century (longer in some regions), with heavy professionals,solid shieldwalls of light infantry mustered men and some archery support. These will be tricky to use, as they can be somewhat ungainly if you want to take the battle to the enemy. When the knightly class and mounted heavy retainers appear in the late 10th to 11th century in the same regions, the professional infantry job is mainly taken by mercenaries or the better mustered troops. Missile troops remain, some professionals, some mustered, with crossbow and hand bow vexillating in popularity depending on the period and area. The commanders of the time tended to employ infantry and/or missile troops to disorder opposing infantry lines before attacking formed infantry with heavy cavalry. Heavy cavalry would be used against opposing cavalry - if they faced some sort of horsebow, the usual tactic was to screen the cavalry with heavy infantry and launch controlled charges, or use missile infantry or horsebow back. While this tactic was widely employed by the crusader states, usually employing Turcopoles to shoot back, Richard I was apparently used enough to it to adapt his crossbowment to the role of missile screen. From the late 13th and 14th centuries on formed infantry possibly became even more resistant to cavalry attack (as well-published by DeVries) and warfare kept proffessionalizing itself more and more into the early modern era, with the muster gradually replaced by taxing and mercenaries and/or paid troops.

This is of course very broad. Medieval europe, north africa and the middle east were anything if not heterogenous. Scandinavian armies kept their heavy infantry core much larger and used less cavalry than continentals. Many central european states, such as the hungarians, had a relatively light cavalry army well into the 13th century, and did not fully go over to extensive use of heavy cavalry until after the mongol invasion. The spanish christians relied heavily on mustered troops until the end of the high middle ages. The italian communes employed citizen armies until the 14th century, when mercenaries became more prevalent. In fringe areas, mercenaries were widely employed - horsebow on the steppe fringe, scandinavians before their christianization, muslim mercenaries (a wide variety of troop types) in the religious contact areas, and so on. The Almohads and Almoravid rulers of north africa and iberia had infantry-heavy armies in their active periods, much of it relatively light but well formed.

Horse-based armies were common in south-eastern europe, the middle east and further east, especially after different turkish tribes migrated or conquered their way into these areas. Nomad horse armies were essentially (very simplified, of course) composed of cores of medium to (later) heavy cavalry drawn from the nobility, and mustered (bad term, perhaps) light cavalry. All middle eastern states had infantry traditions - arabs and byzantines especially. The byzantine armie was the one that in the early middle ages came closest to real professionalism (which doesn't always help as much as one might think). In the high and late middle ages one sees an increasing professionalism in these regions as well, often centered around slave-soldiers.

Overall, for game purposes, M2TW should not be changed all that much from RTW - since RTW's cavalry was somewhat overpowered, M2TWs professional heavies should not be much of a surprise. The different troop types will likely fit nicely into the same roles as before. Apparently, there will be quite a few nast artillery pieces in late game, and the infantry will be of better quality (except, of course, that the heavy cavalry can be dismounted early game) than before.

If the Attack/Defense ratios we see in screenshots are an indication, battles will last longer in MTW - the defense ratios of close combat infantry and cavalry seem very high due to extensive armour.

[Swe_gamer]

Not sure if I like this idea or not, guess time will tell. Sometimes I wanted a unit made up of only cavalry to be able to harass and quickly move the army around the map. Will this not be possible now?

[Xiaodun]

Not sure if I like this idea or not, guess time will tell. Sometimes I wanted a unit made up of only cavalry to be able to harass and quickly move the army around the map. Will this not be possible now?

It'll still be possible of course, however pure cavalry armies shine most when used with Turcoman horsearchers (in this period). A good sizeable number of infantry can defeat melee infantry with relative ease.

[technishn08]

I don't see why not, but it might be more expensive.