Divide et Impera (Divide & Rule) - Main Thread

[wrcromartie]

@Selea -

Been playing for a while today and having a blast. A little feedback: I think you should consider lowering the HP and/or armor of chariots. While the man and horse are well armored, the weak link is usually in the harness/chariot itself, which really couldn't stand up to a lot of punishment.

I'm having a lot of fun with my uber Seleucid chariot generals, but I admit they feel a bit OP.

[adambomb1]

Do you always date the update? I see 25/11/13 is the last update, correct?

[michaelpap]

selea some times in battle when i drag a unit to create a new formation, it seems as if there 2 units...have y noticed such thing?

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Can someone tell me where the latest version of the download is? I've been lost in pages.

[Terrible at making usernames]

Quick query guys, if the mod's focus is historical accuracy, then should the Roman legions really have a shieldwall formation? It was my understanding that historically they tended towards the opposite; the phalanx formation (which was essentially a shieldwall) was dropped when the Manipular structure came about. From Vegetius, De Re Militari:

"No part of drill is more essential in action than for soldiers to keep their ranks with the greatest exactness, without opening or closing too much. Troops too much crowded can never fight as they ought, and only embarrass one another. If their order is too open and loose, they give the enemy an opportunity of penetrating. Whenever this happens and they are attacked in the rear, universal disorder and confusion are inevitable. Recruits should therefore be constantly in the field, drawn up by the roll and formed at first into a single rank. They should learn to dress in a straight line and keep an equal and just distance between man and man."

Formations that do get a mention are infantry wedges and orbs.

In my opinion, the better Celtic units in chainmail should be on par with Roman legionaries in lorica hamata. Roman helmets, mail and shields were all based on Celtic designs, so this seems suitable.

[Disarray]

Quick query guys, if the mod's focus is historical accuracy, then should the Roman legions really have a shieldwall formation? It was my understanding that historically they tended towards the opposite; the phalanx formation (which was essentially a shieldwall) was dropped when the Manipular structure came about. From Vegetius, De Re Militari:

"No part of drill is more essential in action than for soldiers to keep their ranks with the greatest exactness, without opening or closing too much. Troops too much crowded can never fight as they ought, and only embarrass one another. If their order is too open and loose, they give the enemy an opportunity of penetrating. Whenever this happens and they are attacked in the rear, universal disorder and confusion are inevitable. Recruits should therefore be constantly in the field, drawn up by the roll and formed at first into a single rank. They should learn to dress in a straight line and keep an equal and just distance between man and man."

Formations that do get a mention are infantry wedges and orbs.

In my opinion, the better Celtic units in chainmail should be on par with Roman legionaries in lorica hamata. Roman helmets, mail and shields were all based on Celtic designs, so this seems suitable.

I think it really depends on what you mean by shieldwall. If your talking about an army's formation you are probably right. But if you are talking about a particular unit I see no reason why the option shouldn't be there. Your quote there is a general practice for the Roman army. One of the main reason the Romans abandoned the phalanx, as I understand history, was because they kept losing when they fought that way. The terrain in Italy isn't really conducive to close order combat that you get in your phalanxes. Their armies kept getting out maneuvered by the Gauls and the other Italian peoples so they adopted a more flexible system. But if you have a bunch of people charging your line closing ranks, locking shields and absorbing that force on shields is an excellent, unit level, tactic. A damn sight better than keeping your spacing perfect at about 1 m between each person and letting the barbarians get all up in your unit's formation. Once the initial shock is dealt with I imagine the ranks would open up for the meat-grinder fight that the Roman's excelled at.

[TehGonk]

I was watching my housemate play earlier using this mod and noticed that cavalry would get fatigued pretty fast. I also noticed that their fatigue would go up even if they were walking.

Are both of these things supposed to be happening or is it simply an oversight? Just curious.

[Captain Jin]

I'm not sure about where the complaints about Romans losing are coming from. Maybe you guys were just used to the ridiculous ease they trampled everything in vanilla. But I'm about 150 turns into a Roman campaign and I've yet to lose a battle I've fought personally. There have been some really tough, close fights here and there. But if you have good tactics, use your triplex acies smartly then you should be cruising. I've beaten Greeks, Gauls and Iberians so far and so far my most costly victory has come against the Scordici of all factions. I still won, but I lost a lot of troops and I think that was because they pressed really hard and fast on one legion, overwhelmed and routed most of them with their two armies then moved on my second legion who managed to win but just barely. It's all about smart use of your cavalry, protecting your flanks, turning the enemy's flanks and committing your principes or triarii at the right moments. In vanilla my hastati could routinely win on their own. I NEVER used triarii, but in this mod I've had to commit them in several desperate battles.

And for anyone that's interested my army is usually:

1 General
4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 2 Triarii, 4 Velites, 2 Socii Hastati, 2 Auxiliaries of some kind, and usually 2 cavalry that are either socii extradordonari. The core of the my setup always stays the same regarding the hastati, principes and triarii but each legion has a slightly different makeup with the remaining troop slots. But it's generally along those lines.

I was watching my housemate play earlier using this mod and noticed that cavalry would get fatigued pretty fast. I also noticed that their fatigue would go up even if they were walking.

Are both of these things supposed to be happening or is it simply an oversight? Just curious.

That depends on how he was using them I would say. I don't seem to have a major fatigue issue with them. But I only use them to charge open flanks of enemies that have been in a fight for a little bit, chase down fleeing enemies, or attack slingers, archers or peltast types.

[Iperione]

But if you have good tactics, use your triplex acies smartly then you should be cruising.

I didn't play Romans with this mod yet, but I'm curious: could you explain to me how do you use triplex acies?

[Captain Jin]

I didn't play Romans with this mod yet, but I'm curious: could you explain to me how do you use triplex acies?

I just set up using the triplex acies formation button after selecting every unit in my stack. Then I position them where I want and either I wait for the enemy to attack me, or I go after them. But I always advance as an entire formation and almost always walk my troops rather than run to avoid fatigue as much as possible. If I'm on the defense against superior numbers I put my hastati into shield wall formation so they can soak up more fighting and not fatigue as fast. As soon as I start to see how long the enemy line is and if there is a danger of them overlapping the ends of my hastati lines I deploy my principes. I use them either to reinforce heavily hit parts of the line where a particular hastati unit may be taking casualties or in danger of taking heavier casualties, or I send them to the edges of the line to counter any flanking attempts by the AI. Once the line has stabilized into the two sides slugging it out then I will push the remaining principes out to the side of the line, either right or left depending the situation. Then I get them set to turn the flank, attack the enemy from the side and behind then, almost without fail, the attack starts to roll up the enemy line and causes a rout. Cavalry placed back, and if possible hidden, also protect the flanks from other units. Every now and then I'll have to commit my triarii, like if I'm taking a lot of casualties and need to shore up a section of the line or if I take a cavalry attack on one of the flanks. But these flanking cavalry attacks can either be countered by my own cavalry, or auxiliaries.

As far as use of velites.... it all depends on the situation. If there are a lot of slingers it's tough because they'll wear your velites out and they'll rout. So in that instance I pull them back, wait for the lines to clash, push them off to the side of the flanks and just throw javelins into the mushy backside of the enemy line. Or I try to hide them in nearby terrain, once the enemy has passed I then unmask and rush in and hit them from behind or the side with the javelins. The trouble is skirmishers need a lot of micromanaging and once the lines clash I rarely have the time to give them the time they need. I realized in coop campaigns that when my buddy would control the main army and I would take over his cavalry and skirmishers I could make great use of them because I could micromanage them and prevent them from doing stupid things as they are wont to do thanks to the skirmisher mode.

[est Dudus]

Can I ask what level you play on and if you are using any other CAI mod. I use the better recruitment mod and I am facing the best the A.I can build. I agree with you, that with proper tactics you can win easy. But I have seen over and over my units breaking in a matter of 30 secs. That makes its really hard to use tactics if your line breaks before you can even flank. Against weaker units like spear or something, my legions destroy. They hold their lines like they should and I am able use tactics to win the day easy. Now, having said all this, I want this mod to be as hard as possible to win. Selea understands this (thank god), but you have to have a fair balance so that its not impossible to win.. Right now the Marius units are a bit overwhelmed on H/VH (against same level troops).

[TehGonk]

@Captain Jin: Nice post. I never know what unit combination to use early game as Rome so yeah, thanks for that.

Also, about cavalry, it was when he was trying to reposition them round the back of the enemy lines. Maybe he was just using them incorrectly I don't know.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Odd question, when playing the SSO mod and the Ultimate Phalanx spacing mod, I tried them out and it seems phalanxes seem to be more breaking up as clumps of phalanxes attack each other. More soliders fight indivually. Are they better with these mods or is Divide Et Imperia meant to be played on its own? I tried it a couple of times and seems more balanced,.

[Socktu]

Odd question, when playing the SSO mod and the Ultimate Phalanx spacing mod, I tried them out and it seems phalanxes seem to be more breaking up as clumps of phalanxes attack each other. More soliders fight indivually. Are they better with these mods or is Divide Et Imperia meant to be played on its own? I tried it a couple of times and seems more balanced,.

Divide Et Imperia is not meant to play nice or is compatible with anything that alters unit sizes/morale/armor or any tables pertaining to the BAI.

[Aethyr]

Are you using your units abilities correctly.
I spread my legions into longer lines with say 3-4 ranks and have a second line behind. I use the tactic that sells suggested where two units in a line will both charge the same enemy, both expelling their pila and then stop the rear line with backspace. The front line then enters fulcrum. After a short time as the foe tires I assault again with the rear line and pull back the first. In this time I have other reserves moving around to flanks, and my cavalry moving behind enemy lines to shatter any broken units.
Works like a charm.
Getting the most out of the pilums is make or break, it means the difference between winning or losing without a doubt against anything above a levy foe. Hope this helps.

[est Dudus]

Well, you just described what I do and you are correct sir. However, for whatever reason, if your front line breaks even after that you are in serious trouble. For example, I had my first co in fulcrum and they just broke in under a min against one unit and then 3 other units broke shortly after. This forced me to commit the rest of my 2nd line. I then charged the rear of the enemy with several Cav charges and only two enemy units began to wavier...then my second line began to break, and you can figure out the rest. So, 20vs20 or 40vs 40 against equal or better units , Romes Marius units are really struggling. I actually enjoy this, however, I just feel that they are breaking a bit to quick. I prefer them to be much weaker then their contemporaries as far as attacking, but they should be able to defend and hold for a good period, unless they are flanked. Someone else made a observation about Romans in fulcrum. Against "non-traditional troops" it appears they envelope your unit on the sides and you get a flanking penalty. So, maybe that is it. Selea, seems to think their stats are a little to weak (I am guessing he would know lol).

[Captain Jin]

Well, you just described what I do and you are correct sir. However, for whatever reason, if your front line breaks even after that you are in serious trouble. For example, I had my first co in fulcrum and they just broke in under a min against one unit and then 3 other units broke shortly after. This forced me to commit the rest of my 2nd line. I then charged the rear of the enemy with several Cav charges and only two enemy units began to wavier...then my second line began to break, and you can figure out the rest. So, 20vs20 or 40vs 40 against equal or better units , Romes Marius units are really struggling. I actually enjoy this, however, I just feel that they are breaking a bit to quick. I prefer them to be much weaker then their contemporaries as far as attacking, but they should be able to defend and hold for a good period, unless they are flanked. Someone else made a observation about Romans in fulcrum. Against "non-traditional troops" it appears they envelope your unit on the sides and you get a flanking penalty. So, maybe that is it. Selea, seems to think their stats are a little to weak (I am guessing he would know lol).

Ah see, I haven't used the Marius legionaries yet. Do you use a mix of veteran legionaries as well, maybe to post them in your second row?

[est Dudus]

Yeah, my typical setup is 5 vets and 4 or 5 leg and a 1st co......I have 4 cav units and in some legions I have balista or mix of other units. Just depends. I kinda stopped using the balista in my campaign because they were just so OP I didn't feel like it was fair (just super accurate--like heat seeking missiles). Seems like 4D helped lower their power so I am using them again.
Now, trust me I took the advice from Selea and a few other's and it has improved my battles, but like I said, if your front line breaks right away, you are screwed. If this was the last update of this mod I would be happy, but I think it just needs a few very minor tweaks to be perfect.

[Captain Jin]

Yeah, my typical setup is 5 vets and 4 or 5 leg and a 1st co......I have 4 cav units and in some legions I have balista or mix of other units. Just depends. I kinda stopped using the balista in my campaign because they were just so OP I didn't feel like it was fair (just super accurate--like heat seeking missiles). Seems like 4D helped lower their power so I am using them again.
Now, trust me I took the advice from Selea and a few other's and it has improved my battles, but like I said, if your front line breaks right away, you are screwed. If this was the last update of this mod I would be happy, but I think it just needs a few very minor tweaks to be perfect.

Hmmm, I think I just ran into this bit of an issue that you were talking about. I attacked Carthage, the city, with an overwhelming force against a single stack of Nasmonia, I think. Anyway, I landed troops in the city as well as assaulted the walls. I had several hastati and a single vet legionary, because he was the admiral of the fleet. They engaged a force of spear levies, several units of them. The veteran legionaries broke and fled after a short fight and lost a lot of guys, despite not being flanked and just fighting in the streets. Before they had fled I was able to get some Principes in there to help because for some reason the hastati and the vet legionary were not doing well against these African spear levies. So once the vet legionary unit broke and fled so did two of the principe units that had 158/160 guys. That was pretty upsetting.

[Jihada]

I never play Romans,just can't stand them. They are really poor as an AI faction however. At the moment they are split between myself (Egypt),Inubres and Carthage. In fact the Etruscans have outlasted them. I'll have to attack my ally Carthage and the Inubres eventually to get Italia province.
I use my cavalry a lot attacking missile troops. Is this why after a victory they are too tired to kill many routers ,especially elephants ? They seem to mostly just jog along beside the enemy escorting them off the field.
Good mod though. Only the second faction I've stuck with since winning a campaign with Athens with Radious some time ago. Egypt seems invincible once you get going