'Atheist, open your heart for God'

[Marcus Scaurus]

I, an atheist, have discussions with christians almost every week. My family is Christian, so are many friends and other people I know, and as I'm not the kind of guy who keeps his atheism for himself, they tend to talk to me about things like evolution and philosophy quite alot. The majority of the christians I know aren't really intellectual: I have yet to meet the first Christian who knows what Darwin means with 'natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest'. As I read quite alot about evolution (just started reading Darwin) and philosophy, it's not hard for me to defeat them.

That was quite different when I talked to a guy yesterday. First we talked about usual things like evolution, some astronomy and the Bible (he knew quite a lot of the Bible). I had the upper hand when it came to evolution, he when it came to the Bible, so neither one of us was superior. But then he started talking about opening my heart for God. In his opinion, it's impossible to find God the rational way: I was opposed to this view, asking why it is impossible to find God without diving into a world of illusions. 'We have brains like a peanut compared to that of God, we can't reach him using our 'limited' rationalism' he said. 'You can prove God, not with science or philosophy, but by opening your hart for him'. What he basically said was that I should open my heart for God, the only way to find him. I don't know how to deal with this.

If I would say 'I give it a chance, I pray to God', I would betray myself. I will not pray to God, I just can't do it. But if I would say 'I just can't do it' he would say 'You don't want to give God a chance!'. Honestly, I don't know what to do. What should I say to the guy next week? Although I only know him since yesterday, he's a very nice guy, I don't want any conflicts, tension or whatsoever. Atheists here, help me! Any links, articles or just personal advise would be welcome.

Marcus Scaurus.

[Garbarsardar]

So, why you don't open your heart to God? If he responds you are fine if not you are fine again. In both cases you can tell your friend that you gave it a chance. No one betrays his beliefs by being open minded...

[Lord Bohemond]

Sounds a bit closeminded - why not try it out?

If you are a REAL scientist, you won't be closeminded about this. Give it a shot, and if it doesn't pan out, you won't lose anything. If it does pan out, well, then you would be very happy that you made the right choice.

[Marcus Scaurus]

You're right, but as I said earlier, it's hard for me to do that. The guy suggested that I should pray with my brothers, a thing I wouldn't do. I'm afraid that if I would 'open my heart for God', giving him a try, it would create false hope for Christians who know me, a hope that'll explode when I say I'm still atheist after trying it. And I'm afraid that it'll somehow damage my reputation as a somewhat intellectual atheist.

[Torment]

You're right, but as I said earlier, it's hard for me to do that. The guy suggested that I should pray with my brothers, a thing I wouldn't do. I'm afraid that if I would 'open my heart for God', giving him a try, it would create false hope for Christians who know me, a hope that'll explode when I say I'm still atheist after trying it. And I'm afraid that it'll somehow damage my reputation as a somewhat intellectual atheist.

Your beliefs shouldn't be based on what others think of you, it should be based on what you personally find most appealing, and what you're heart tells you is right. I know firsthand that it is hard to convert to a religion instead of from it, especially here in Holland, the atheist capital of the world, but there's no shame in it. To be honest, I've been thinking of converting to protestantism for quite some time now, not because I somehow 'know' there's a god out there, or because I believe every word the bible says, but because the ideals, ideas and goals really appeal to me. Perhaps I'll even feel this 'spiritual enlightenment' many of my Christian friends say they feel. Who knows, it's worth a shot.

I say go for it. It are your own beliefs, you can betray nobody but yourself. And I think it's more likely you'll find yourself betraying yourself by closing yourself to ideas instead of opening to them.

[Lord Bohemond]

You're right, but as I said earlier, it's hard for me to do that. The guy suggested that I should pray with my brothers, a thing I wouldn't do. I'm afraid that if I would 'open my heart for God', giving him a try, it would create false hope for Christians who know me, a hope that'll explode when I say I'm still atheist after trying it. And I'm afraid that it'll somehow damage my reputation as a somewhat intellectual atheist.

If that's your concern - don't worry about it man.

If they do throw a fuss over it, then you clearly picked the wrong Christians to associate with. If they are really your friends they'll accept your decision. If not- then you know they were never your friends in the first place.

[Zenith Darksea]

Hmm, an interesting dilemma. I'm not an atheist, but I'll throw in my opinion anyway. You might even find it useful, coming as it does from the horse's mouth. This fellow is apparently demanding a yes/no answer. In my view, you have three options:

1. 'Open your heart to God' - you could give it a try. Is it really betraying your ideals? If afterwards you haven't 'found' God (and I'm not entirely sure I agree with this fellow's approach), then there's no loss. Then you'll be able to say that you're absolutely certain! If you do, then you'll feel that you gained something from it anyway (as long as you consider Christianity carefully, and find the denomination that suits you best, rather than just falling into one; I recommend Orthodoxy...). It won't harm your intellectual credentials - it will show how open-minded and experimentative you are.
2. Say no - this is always the best way to deal with clingy Evangelicals, I find. Since I became Orthodox, they've scarcely stopped trying to badger me (they think I've gone to the devil). A simple 'no' clears the air wonderfully - they can't argue with that. However, it may damage your budding friendship, and you might not want that.
3. Lie - say that you have, but that it didn't work. That way he can't give you that rebuff, and you can maintain your integrity. However, you may still feel that there are ethical problems in deception, even though you are an atheist.

Incidentally, a couple of points about Christianity. Who said that evolution wasn't compatible with Christianity? Orthodox Christians are the most theologically conservative Christians there are, yet many (if not most) of us, including myself, are happy to accept evolution. Obviously we feel that there has to be a place for God as creator, but we don't deny that evolution may have been His method of creation. Likewise, I think that it is possible to find God through rational thought. I like to think that I did (to some extent; I can't deny that the traffic has been two ways, to put it crudely).

Whatever you choose however, make sure you're comfortable with it. And if they want you to go to one of their Evangelical Mega Churches and speak in tongues and twitch around on the floor, remember - JUST SAY NO.

EDIT - Better even than that, you can find an Orthodox church in your area, if you live in America. That's a real eye-opener for those who aren't used to traditional Eastern Christianity, I often think. It was for me.

[Marcus Scaurus]

Thank you for all the posts!

2. Say no - this is always the best way to deal with clingy Evangelicals, I find. Since I became Orthodox, they've scarcely stopped trying to badger me (they think I've gone to the devil). A simple 'no' clears the air wonderfully - they can't argue with that. However, it may damage your budding friendship, and you might not want that.

Than a Christian would say 'you didn't try, so you can't be sure whether God exists or not'. You can't say anything about the taste of beer if you've never tasted beer and never want to. That's the vision of most Christians. I think I'll try it (opening my heart for God) once, after that I'll just keep them off by saying 'No'.

3. Lie - say that you have, but that it didn't work. That way he can't give you that rebuff, and you can maintain your integrity. However, you may still feel that there are ethical problems in deception, even though you are an atheist.

Exactly. I don't want to lie. I would be disappointed if I would find out that a friend lied that he seriously considered to accept Darwin as the truth.

Incidentally, a couple of points about Christianity. Who said that evolution wasn't compatible with Christianity? Orthodox Christians are the most theologically conservative Christians there are, yet many (if not most) of us, including myself, are happy to accept evolution. Obviously we feel that there has to be a place for God as creator, but we don't deny that evolution may have been His method of creation. Likewise, I think that it is possible to find God through rational thought. I like to think that I did (to some extent; I can't deny that the traffic has been two ways, to put it crudely).

To me, evolution and Christianity are like water and fire. Quite a lot of (religious) people like you say that evolution and Christianity are compatible, but these people obviously don't understand Darwinism. It goes right against the Bible, right against a higher being, right against everything Christianity is based on! The idea of God as the one behind the whole evolutionary design (Intelligent Design) is not only unscientifical but also 'lazy'. Some people accept evolution, but they fill up the holes with God, just to explain things easier. They (and you) should read Richard Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker.

[Korinthos Hoplites]

I pretty much agree with Garbarsardar and Lord Bohemond

EDIT: I also agree with Zenith, sorry, I was writing when you posted :tooth:

[Zenith Darksea]

As it happens, I do understand Darwin, having studied him in Biology classes (and quite extensively). I'll admit I haven't read that Dawkins book, though I don't read much of his stuff as he likes to intersperse his own rather strong opinions amongst his science. At Oxford (my own university) where Dawkins is based, even a number of his fellow scholars have expressed their disapproval of this. It's true that the basic principle of their being no creation at all goes against Christianity, but I find that if you shelve that part (and, in conjunction with Christianity, it's not at all a vital component as attested by scientific discovery) then there's no real problem. I personally find the idea of a creator much more logical myself, when you take into account not just evolution but its place in the life of the Earth and then in the history of the universe. This perhaps isn't the place for a scientific thesis, but, Dawkins' militant views aside, I honestly don't think that Christianity and evolution have anything to fear from each other.

[Shaun]

Sure, we I wa a bit younger I hae tried to open my heart to god, many times, infact not only god, but allah, and Zeus, and all the Hindu gods etc, but no reply. This signifies something I think.

If you are a REAL scientist, you won't be closeminded about this. Give it a shot, and if it doesn't pan out, you won't lose anything. If it does pan out, well, then you would be very happy that you made the right choice.

But I have better things to try out though, as said above I have repeated open my heart to all the gods that I can think of, but nope, nothing in return.

To me, evolution and Christianity are like water and fire.

But you do realise that they dont necesserily conflit, do you? I would estimate with the figures of Christians and those that beleive in evolution taken account for that about over a third of Christians believe in evolution, infact in most countries evolution is the dominant theory. Even in the 'Christian America'.

[Ummon]

I, an atheist, have discussions with christians almost every week. My family is Christian, so are many friends and other people I know, and as I'm not the kind of guy who keeps his atheism for himself, they tend to talk to me about things like evolution and philosophy quite alot. The majority of the christians I know aren't really intellectual: I have yet to meet the first Christian who knows what Darwin means with 'natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest'. As I read quite alot about evolution (just started reading Darwin) and philosophy, it's not hard for me to defeat them.

That was quite different when I talked to a guy yesterday. First we talked about usual things like evolution, some astronomy and the Bible (he knew quite a lot of the Bible). I had the upper hand when it came to evolution, he when it came to the Bible, so neither one of us was superior. But then he started talking about opening my heart for God. In his opinion, it's impossible to find God the rational way: I was opposed to this view, asking why it is impossible to find God without diving into a world of illusions. 'We have brains like a peanut compared to that of God, we can't reach him using our 'limited' rationalism' he said. 'You can prove God, not with science or philosophy, but by opening your hart for him'. What he basically said was that I should open my heart for God, the only way to find him. I don't know how to deal with this.

If I would say 'I give it a chance, I pray to God', I would betray myself. I will not pray to God, I just can't do it. But if I would say 'I just can't do it' he would say 'You don't want to give God a chance!'. Honestly, I don't know what to do. What should I say to the guy next week? Although I only know him since yesterday, he's a very nice guy, I don't want any conflicts, tension or whatsoever. Atheists here, help me! Any links, articles or just personal advise would be welcome.

Marcus Scaurus.

If God exists, which I do think, He doesn't need you to open your heart to Him. He will find His way through to you when you least expect it. If, of course, you are destined to this.

And, I am not speaking of predestination. It is just that anyone of us learns only what he can learn.

[RZZZA]

Open you heart to God? What does that even mean?

[Caius Britannicus]

Open you heart to God? What does that even mean?

I have to ask the same question. Does it mean, open my mind to the possiblity that god may exist? Does it mean, just believe in him and he will exist? Does it mean, love god and I will find him? All of these come down to a basic pre-determined irrational belief in god. To find God I must believe in him. It doesnt make sense.

If its open my mind to the possibility, I did that for more than 15 years of my life. God never spoke to me, I never found God (whatever that means). To me, its a completely meaningless phrase "open my heart to god." Its just your typical religious gobbledygook they use to try and convert you.

[RZZZA]

Which God, too? Theres dozens and dozens of them. Some people are monotheists, some are polytheists, some are henotheists and pantheists and deists and panentheists and satanists...Which God are we supposed to "open our hearts to"?

[Marcus Scaurus]

If God exists, which I do think, He doesn't need you to open your heart to Him. He will find His way through to you when you least expect it. If, of course, you are destined to this.

That's what I said to the guy. Why do I need to find God? He isn't like a child hiding from his friend in the forrest. But it's more about opening your heart for Jesus (or God, they're quite the same), otherwise it'll be impossible for Jesus to give you a 'new hart'.

Which God, too? Theres dozens and dozens of them. Some people are monotheists, some are polytheists, some are henotheists and pantheists and deists and panentheists and satanists...Which God are we supposed to "open our hearts to"?

That's what I'm going to confront him with next time I talk to him. A friend of mine says he's sure of the fact that Jesus exists, because he personally experienced him. I find it hard to deal with it. I can't just say 'You where hallucinating'. Same with miracles. The same friend told me that an uncle of his was miracously cured from cancer (without other medical treatment) by praying. It's hard to say anything sceptical/scientifical about that.

[Ummon]

That's what I said to the guy. Why do I need to find God? He isn't like a child hiding from his friend in the forrest. But it's more about opening your heart for Jesus (or God, they're quite the same), otherwise it'll be impossible for Jesus to give you a 'new hart'.

God already knows what you will choose. God, supposed as existent, as I am convinced He is, is infinitely forebearing and loving. You don't have to do anything. God knows if you are sincere, and He won't probably mind if you honestly don't believe in Him. But in all sincerity, by your very words, you're already following that path which some eastern wise men defined as such: "If you love God you'll find Him in 50 years, if you hate Him you'll find Him in one fifth of that time".

[Erik]

That's what I'm going to confront him with next time I talk to him. A friend of mine says he's sure of the fact that Jesus exists, because he personally experienced him. I find it hard to deal with it. I can't just say 'You where hallucinating'. Same with miracles. The same friend told me that an uncle of his was miracously cured from cancer (without other medical treatment) by praying. It's hard to say anything sceptical/scientifical about that.

Just bring up the Flying Spaghetti Monster:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_...tti_Monsterism

Ask him if he ever opened his heart to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and why (not).

[Ummon]

If I knew it, I would be God.

[Dromikaites]

Remind him about the episode of Saul/Paul on the way to Damascus: God can also speak to you if He really intends to convert you. So you'll be waiting till you hear God. That was my Atheist line against those who were trying to convert me in the early '90s when Romania (a Christian Orthodox country where over 80% of the people declare they believe in God) was invaded by Protestant missionaries who were trying to turn Romanians into...Christians.

I haven't seen much of that for the last 10 years but from time to time I still bump into some nutjob (usually American) who tries to convince me the Orthodox are not really Christians. Not that I care, being an Atheist, but that does tell a lot about the workings of the brain of some missionaries