Pope Meets Islamic World Envoys

[sephodwyrm]

Source: The evil Beeb
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5376556.stm

Pope meets Islamic world envoys
Pope (L) meets Muslim envoys
The Pope said Christians and Muslims should reject violence
Pope Benedict XVI has met envoys from Muslim nations in an attempt to defuse a crisis in relations between the Catholic Church and Islam.

He expressed "total and profound respect" for the Muslim faith, and said inter-faith dialogue was vital.

In response, Iraqi ambassador Albert Yelda said it was "time to put what happened behind us and build bridges".

The meeting aimed at reconciliation after recent remarks made by the Pope caused outrage in the Islamic world.

Muslim leaders had been demanding an unequivocal apology from the Pope.

Dialogue welcomed

The meeting, which lasted just 30 minutes, was held at the Pope's residence near Rome.

Ambassadors from 21 countries and a representative from the Arab League attended.

"I would like today to stress my total and profound respect for all Muslims," the Pope said in a brief speech to the envoys.

He called for "sincere and respectful dialogue", adding that Christians and Muslims alike must reject all forms of violence and respect religious liberty.

Correspondents say the latter was a reference to restrictions on the church's activity in some Muslim countries.

"Since the beginning of my pontificate I have had occasion to express my wish to continue to establish bridges of friendship with believers of all religions, showing particularly my appreciation in the belief in dialogue between Muslims and Christians," he said.

"...The inter-religious and inter-cultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims is, in effect, a vital necessity, on which a large part of our future depends."

He also quoted his predecessor, John Paul II, stating the need for "reciprocity in all fields".

Following the speech the Pope greeted the envoys individually, before concluding the meeting.

Those attending included the head of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, Cardinal Paul Poupard, and Islamic representatives in Italy, as well as Muslim ambassadors to the Vatican.

Cardinal Poupard said that the meeting was "a signal that the Holy Father's call for a dialogue between cultures and religion has been widely welcomed".

Yahya Pallavicini, vice-president of one of Italy's main Islamic organisations, the Islamic Religious Community, said he hoped the meeting would be "the starting point for a new scenario of inter-faith dialogue with knowledge and truly religious Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders and scholars".

However, he expressed a fear that the Pope's comments demonstrated a "Christian Catholic exclusivism" - a belief that Catholicism was superior to other religions.

Earlier EU Commission President Jose Manuel Durao Barroso has defended the Pope, saying more European leaders should have supported him.

"I was disappointed there were not more European leaders who said: 'Naturally, the Pope has the right to express his views'," Mr Barroso was quoted as saying in an interview with Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

"The problem is not the comments of the Pope but the reactions of the extremists."

'Misunderstood'

The pontiff said he was "deeply sorry", following the reactions in some countries to words of a speech he made in southern Germany earlier in the month.

On Wednesday, he told pilgrims at the Vatican that his remarks in Bavaria last week had been "misunderstood".

He said his use of a quote from a 14th-Century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos, did not reflect his personal opinion.

The quote says: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The Pope said his real intention had been to "explain that religion and violence do not go together, but religion and reason do".

That's right. Admit your mistake and apologize.
And quote your predecessor more often.

[sephodwyrm]

Pope's Speech
Source: Evil Beeb

Text of Pope's speech
Pope Benedict XVI, 24 September
Pope Benedict XVI has expressed "deep respect" for Islam
The following is the text of Pope Benedict XVI's speech to Muslim envoys, in which the pontiff tried to defuse tensions between the Catholic Church and Islam over comments he made earlier this month in southern Germany.

I am pleased to welcome you to this gathering that I wanted to arrange in order to strengthen the bonds of friendship and solidarity between the Holy See and Muslim communities throughout the world.

I thank Cardinal Poupard, President of the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue, for the words that he has just addressed to me, and I thank all of you for responding to my invitation.

The circumstances which have given rise to our gathering are well known. I have already had occasion to dwell upon them in the course of the past week.

In this particular context, I should like to reiterate today all the esteem and the profound respect that I have for Muslim believers, calling to mind the words of the Second Vatican Council which for the Catholic Church are the Magna Carta of Muslim-Christian dialogue:

"The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly, just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted to God" (Declaration Nostra Aetate, 3).

Placing myself firmly within this perspective, I have had occasion, since the very beginning of my pontificate, to express my wish to continue establishing bridges of friendship with the adherents of all religions, showing particular appreciation for the growth of dialogue between Muslims and Christians (cf. Address to the Delegates of Other Churches and Ecclesial Communities and of Other Religious Traditions, 25 April 2005).

As I underlined at Cologne last year, "Inter-religious and inter-cultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims cannot be reduced to an optional extra.

"It is, in fact, a vital necessity, on which in large measure our future depends" (Meeting with Representatives of Some Muslim Communities, Cologne, 20 August 2005).

In a world marked by relativism and too often excluding the transcendence and universality of reason, we are in great need of an authentic dialogue between religions and between cultures, capable of assisting us, in a spirit of fruitful co-operation, to overcome all the tensions together.

Continuing, then, the work undertaken by my predecessor, Pope John Paul II, I sincerely pray that the relations of trust which have developed between Christians and Muslims over several years, will not only continue, but will develop further in a spirit of sincere and respectful dialogue, based on ever more authentic reciprocal knowledge which, with joy, recognises the religious values that we have in common and, with loyalty, respects the differences.

Inter-religious and inter-cultural dialogue is a necessity for building together this world of peace and fraternity ardently desired by all people of good will.

In this area, our contemporaries expect from us an eloquent witness to show all people the value of the religious dimension of life.

Likewise, faithful to the teachings of their own religious traditions, Christians and Muslims must learn to work together, as indeed they already do in many common undertakings, in order to guard against all forms of intolerance and to oppose all manifestations of violence; as for us, religious authorities and political leaders, we must guide and encourage them in this direction.

Indeed, "although considerable dissensions and enmities between Christians and Muslims may have arisen in the course of the centuries, the Council urges all parties that, forgetting past things, they train themselves towards sincere mutual understanding and together maintain and promote social justice and moral values as well as peace and freedom for all people" (Declaration, Nostra Aetate, 3).

The lessons of the past must therefore help us to seek paths of reconciliation, in order to live with respect for the identity and freedom of each individual, with a view to fruitful co-operation in the service of all humanity.

As Pope John Paul II said in his memorable speech to young people at Casablanca in Morocco: "Respect and dialogue require reciprocity in all spheres, especially in that which concerns basic freedoms, more particularly religious freedom. They favour peace and agreement between peoples" (no. 5).

Dear friends, I am profoundly convinced that in the current world situation it is imperative that Christians and Muslims engage with one another in order to address the numerous challenges that present themselves to humanity, especially those concerning the defence and promotion of the dignity of the human person and of the rights ensuing from that dignity.

When threats mount up against people and against peace, by recognising the central character of the human person and by working with perseverance to see that human life is always respected, Christians and Muslims manifest their obedience to the Creator, who wishes all people to live in the dignity that he has bestowed upon them.

Dear friends, I pray with my whole heart that the merciful God will guide our steps along the paths of an ever more authentic mutual understanding.

At this time when for Muslims the spiritual journey of the month of Ramadan is beginning, I address to all of them my cordial good wishes, praying that the Almighty may grant them serene and peaceful lives. May the God of peace fill you with the abundance of his blessings, together with the communities that you represent.

Islam bashers who are Catholic, isten to your Pope.
He expresses deep respect for Islam.

[Dromikaites]

Islam bashers who are Catholic, isten to your Pope.
He expresses deep respect for Islam.

He, he, they will surely do! I do however suspect you didn't read the Pope's speach with the due attention otherwise you would be filled with admiration for his ability to bash Muslims while looking straight into their eyes

Let's see the full text of point #3 of Nostra Aetate, as it is published on the offical website of the Holy See, http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...aetate_en.html

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

The paragraph in bold says the Muslims link themselves to the Abrahamic religion. Since indeed the Muslims say that, such a statement doesn't bring anything new. Why would the Pope mention a truism instead of clearly and plainly stating Islam is an Abrahamic religion?

We have the answer in the underlined part. The Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus as God and God will render their deserts (=what they truly deserve) on Judgement Day. The Muslims who are not familiar with the Gospels can't understand what that means but the Christians know the only salvation is through Jesus. Therefore the Christians have no doubt what the Muslims would get on Judgement Day The last sentence about fastening, praying and alsmgiving is a paraphrase of Jesus addressing the Pharisees. What Pope John Paul II (and of course Benedict XVI, since he quoted Nostra Aetate 3) means is Muslims do all the things on the outside, like the Pharisees, while inside they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.

See, one can bash the Muslims while using sugar-coated words? If the Catholic Church needs to be admired for something, at least the way its officials master the words is indeed commendable.

And Benedict XVI goes even further, reminding the Muslim delegates the words of Pope John Paul II in Casablanca (that is an important city of a Muslim country called Morocco, located in North Africa - explanation for the geographically challenged people):

As Pope John Paul II said in his memorable speech to young people at Casablanca in Morocco: "Respect and dialogue require reciprocity in all spheres, especially in that which concerns basic freedoms, more particularly religious freedom. They favour peace and agreement between peoples"

Translation for the Muslims of TWC: open the Muslim countries to Christian missionaries and build a Cathedral in Mecca

So yes, I second sephodwyrm when he urges the Catholics to listen to the Pope

[MasterAdnin]

I don't know about you bro, but personally, I'm happy that the Pope and Islamic leaders are trying to build bridges between the two. I feel enough blood has been spilt due to violence between Christianity and Islam, I hope we can live in peace together, after all, we both believe in one God.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Siblesz]

So, no one has the balls to stand up to the Islamic threat yet except the moronic president Bush and others? It will come. This is just a delay of the clash. Unfortunately, moderates have no say anymore. In other words, the ****'s gone crazy, and now only the extremes are left with the power and influence. So brace yourselves people. This is just the beginning.

[apocalyptic rant over]

[MasterAdnin]

So, no one has the balls to stand up to the Islamic threat yet except the moronic president Bush and others? It will come. This is just a delay of the clash.

Islam itself does not present a threat. It is when people take any religion to the extreme, that is when a threat emerges. That and the fact that you arm them, and give them resources to blow up a couple of towers of yours that a real threat emerges.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Siblesz]

Islam itself does not present a threat. It is when people take any religion to the extreme, that is when a threat emerges. That and the fact that you arm them, and give them resources to blow up a couple of towers of yours that a real threat emerges.

Salaam,
Adnan

read edit above.

[MasterAdnin]

read edit above.

Ah I see........hopefully the moderates and true Muslims will be able to regain power in the extremist countries.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Miraj]

So, no one has the balls to stand up to the Islamic threat yet except the moronic president Bush and others? It will come. This is just a delay of the clash. Unfortunately, moderates have no say anymore. In other words, the ****'s gone crazy, and now only the extremes are left with the power and influence. So brace yourselves people. This is just the beginning.

[apocalyptic rant over]

For the first time, I totally agree with you.

This constant emotional appeasement of these nutbars is really disheartening. Why must everybody say sorry about speaking freely about Islam? Having been a Muslim I can tell you that when Muslims demand apologies they say it from a position of arrogance and domination. Why should Muslim fundamentalists be given respect when they haven't earned it?

Every time westerners and newspapers give way and appease their maddening screams you basically validate their threatening language and it is a further blow to Muslim moderates and secularists, because the fundmentalists riots and threats are in fact more aimed towards local dissidents than to just westerners.

And please remember that people going nuts over cartoons and pope comments are not everybody in the Islamic world. A vast majority of Muslims did not protest these things and don't really care for it. Only the fundamentalist parties get the media to their rallies its end up looking like half the Muslim world is rioting when in fact its just a few hundred Islam-tards from the ghettoes of Cairo and Karachi.

[Dromikaites]

For the first time, I totally agree with you.

This constant emotional appeasement of these nutbars is really disheartening. Why must everybody say sorry about speaking freely about Islam? Having been a Muslim I can tell you that when Muslims demand apologies they say it from a position of arrogance and domination. Why should Muslim fundamentalists be given respect when they haven't earned it?

Every time westerners and newspapers give way and appease their maddening screams you basically validate their threatening language and it is a further blow to Muslim moderates and secularists, because the fundmentalists riots and threats are in fact more aimed towards local dissidents than to just westerners.

Relax, the Pope was not appeasing the nutbars. The nutbars thought the Pope was telling them nice words. However I've explained that what the Pope actually told them is that if they do not accept Jesus as their savior God will give them the rightful reward on Judgement Day and that it's only them who think their religion is Abrahamic. Oh, and the Pope also told them that he wants a cathedral in Mecca

[Miraj]

Relax, the Pope was not appeasing the nutbars. The nutbars thought the Pope was telling them nice words. However I've explained that what the Pope actually told them is that if they do not accept Jesus as their savior God will give them the rightful reward on Judgement Day and that it's only them who think their religion is Abrahamic. Oh, and the Pope also told them that he wants a cathedral in Mecca

I don't get it.

[Tom Paine]

Relax, the Pope was not appeasing the nutbars. The nutbars thought the Pope was telling them nice words. However I've explained that what the Pope actually told them is that if they do not accept Jesus as their savior God will give them the rightful reward on Judgement Day and that it's only them who think their religion is Abrahamic. Oh, and the Pope also told them that he wants a cathedral in Mecca

a) Not according to what I picked out; and b) POint me in the direction of the mosque in the Vatican. Nope, there is none. So no cathedral in Mecca

Furthermore, Drom, what he notes from the Nostra Aetate 3, is the following:

"The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly, just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted to God"

Indeed, "although considerable dissensions and enmities between Christians and Muslims may have arisen in the course of the centuries, the Council urges all parties that, forgetting past things, they train themselves towards sincere mutual understanding and together maintain and promote social justice and moral values as well as peace and freedom for all people"

Nothing else, just these. The rest of it is irrelevant, in the context of his speech. And thought you are right on the matter of his JP2 quote, the fact remains that the reciprocity is not nearly, nearly so extreme as you seem wont to think.

[Blaven]

Source: The evil Beeb
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5376556.stm

That's right. Admit your mistake and apologize.
And quote your predecessor more often.

Too bad he didn't apologize for making the remark, but the reaction it recieved.

These Muslim leaders are seriously pathetic. Now this one ******* has the nerve to say the Pope's apology had Catholic exclusivism in it? Way to go, nit pick every little detail in such a way that you could make a case that Ghandi advocated nuclear warfare and mass genocide of the British people?

I wonder where this Yahya was, and others of his ilk, when that nun got killed? I bet he was so critical of all those rampaging Muslims going :wub: over nothing.

[Zenith Darksea]

I have to say, I could just imagine the Pope's apology:

"The murder, incitement to murder, grievous bodily harm and arson committed in response to my unfortunate comments has forced me to reflect further on what I said. I was wrong to have quoted a Byzantine Emperor who thought that Islam had brought evil and inhumanity."

To be fair, I'm sure that most Muslims reacted sensibly. However, it makes you wonder at times... What I found especially galling about the Islamic response was not just that they murdered a nun on a hospital visit and ordered the assassination of the Pope, but that they went on the rampage and attacked even non-Catholics, including Anglicans and Orthodox. I try to have as much sympathy for the Islamic world as I can, but it's difficult when I see the astonishingly infantile response to such an innocuous quotation. The perpetrators are like spoiled brats, only these spoiled brats have AK-47s and hundreds of followers.

[Tom Paine]

Wait. ZD, you have as much sympathy as possible, and yet you are damning the whole Islamic world for the actions of a few, dare I say it, ****wits?

[Ummon]

Here ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14996192/ ) you also find:

In an audience meant to defuse anger at his use of quotes saying Islam was spread by the sword, Benedict said Christian and Muslim believers must reject violence.

“Christians and Muslims must learn to work together ... in order to guard against all forms of intolerance and to oppose all manifestations of violence,” said the 79-year-old pope.

The Pope hasn't changed a word of his statements. We are waiting for muslims to renounce to holy war.

Diplomacy and open-mindedness is not the same as supine acceptance.

So, no one has the balls to stand up to the Islamic threat yet except the moronic president Bush and others? It will come. This is just a delay of the clash. Unfortunately, moderates have no say anymore. In other words, the ****'s gone crazy, and now only the extremes are left with the power and influence. So brace yourselves people. This is just the beginning.

[apocalyptic rant over]

In truth, Bush is not standing up to anything. Bush is a moron who cannot find his own hat on his head, as you clearly anticipated yourself. IMHO, that is.

[Tom Paine]

Look at the full text of the Pope's speech, however;

In this particular context, I should like to reiterate today all the esteem and the profound respect that I have for Muslim believers, calling to mind the words of the Second Vatican Council which for the Catholic Church are the Magna Carta of Muslim-Christian dialogue:

"The Church looks upon Muslims with respect. They worship the one God living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to humanity and to whose decrees, even the hidden ones, they seek to submit themselves whole-heartedly, just as Abraham, to whom the Islamic faith readily relates itself, submitted to God" (Declaration Nostra Aetate, 3).

Continuing, then, the work undertaken by my predecessor, Pope John Paul II, I sincerely pray that the relations of trust which have developed between Christians and Muslims over several years, will not only continue, but will develop further in a spirit of sincere and respectful dialogue, based on ever more authentic reciprocal knowledge which, with joy, recognises the religious values that we have in common and, with loyalty, respects the differences.

Inter-religious and inter-cultural dialogue is a necessity for building together this world of peace and fraternity ardently desired by all people of good will.

Likewise, faithful to the teachings of their own religious traditions, Christians and Muslims must learn to work together, as indeed they already do in many common undertakings, in order to guard against all forms of intolerance and to oppose all manifestations of violence; as for us, religious authorities and political leaders, we must guide and encourage them in this direction.

(emboldened bits my own, in that last. Just thought they deserved emphasis)

[Ummon]

Look at the full text of the Pope's speech, however;

(emboldened bits my own, in that last. Just thought they deserved emphasis)

What did you expect him to say? Evil heathen convert?

The Catholic Church works through persuasion, and subtle means like these do not function without diplomacy. If Islam is already perfect, why exactly would a dialogue be necessary?

[Tom Paine]

The same obviously may be said of Catholicism. I note however you seem to have not noticed that in that last quote he says that working through the traditions of Islam, one may perfectly well oppose violence and intolerance.

[Ummon]

He said so, yet, you see, if he hadn't said so, nuns would have started to die...