Suggestion To Stop Blobbing

[AgentGB]

Im sure someone has made a thread about this already, or the point as been raised, but I thought this may be worth mentioning again, since I sincerely feel this could help the unnatural look of lines clashing on occasions, but it really only ever seems noticeable on extreme or modified large unit sizes.


I’ve been playing the Beta patch 7, and have noticed that CA have brought back guard mode, which could now help make this possible, and hopefully lose the arcade feel of units trying to attack the center/align of another unit, something that I believe to be causing the unnecessary blobbing /moshing/piling in at times.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My suggestion would be to see if CA think its possible to give a unit 3 areas from which it can be attacked from (left/center/right), to give a true direct attack approach. I could see the reasoning for the center to center attack before, that being guard mode being a blocked of option/drill almost to a fault, which would cause some weird forming/spinning or splintered lines with units continuously trying to keep parallel with units that didn't have guard mode by default.
I’m not sure how the AI would cope with this, or if it would help improve it? Or if its within the engine limitations, but I think it would greatly help.


It strikes me as weird that CA thought ahead in respects that larger modified units sizes would get additional ships when transporting to sea, but the battle aspect can seem quite unnatural when there isn't any depth restriction to ground unit sizes, and units only ever wish to engage the very center of any unit its attacking, and often leads to situations like the the picture above put together by a chap I often play extreme/modified unit sizes with.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In this situation, he is the Macedonian (2 pike units) vs the AI. If the 3 Roman cohorts (AI) had been allowed to attack different sections of his line, they may have stood a chance, or may not have, but worst of all, they have blobbed, breaking immersion, while allowing themselves to be flanked. Which the AI does. Now he is camping a corner to engineer this scenario, and won regardless that both his lines were stretched so thin, but that’s why generally everything ends up in a big mosh pit, or can do. In patch 7, the ai does seem to attempt to flank on the fly, which allows for a battle line to be established better. But on extreme unit sizes its still a exploit, but even worst so for modified unit sizes of 200 – 300 men. Which is sad really since CA obviously wanted bigger unit sizes like the such of this, otherwise there wouldn't have been additional ship per unit.


As I mentioned on smaller unit sizes it not so apparent, but on larger unit sizes it becomes a lot more clearer, and im hoping maybe a year or two from now, when this game as been optimised, and our computer hardware as gotten better, we will be able to run some terrific mods with huge unit sizes, just like Rome I, but so longs this center to center unit action remains, it will always look a tad bit unnatural, and it doesn't help immersion. If this could be looked at, I think it will help Rome 2 in the long run, and maybe help stand the test of time.


I would like to see a Roma Surretum 2 or the likes for Rome 2 in the future, but i know these sorta mods like darth mod like to use huge unit sizes, and my thus reasoning for seeing if it is possbile, since im sure CA have already thought about this and its nothing new, or if it was a engine limitation.

Not sure if ive explained this well, but hopefully you get the jif of what im trying to say? Would be pretty neat if it was possible for CA to do somthing in this regard? or maybe im just nitpicking?

[ChairmanCrassus]

Nice suggestion, but I doubt CA will do anything. I think the problem goes back since Empire in that soldiers act more individually.

[Zaar]

isn´t it the new TW series style? i guess most players like it...

[GnaReffotsirk]

CA won't do it. I'm sorry but you got 10% chance if lucky that this would be implemented.

[vietanh797]

0% since it will require rework from the ground
not something easy to code

[alQamar]

very good ideas.

[Sun Jetzu]

The second picture looked like it was from a much older game

[BigHairyMelon]

Have you played it with the patch 7 beta? It is definitely a lot better. I think one of the main problems was all the units trying to get into the fight, so instead of the front ranks hitting the enemy unit and then the back ranks holding formation they just all ran in and blobbed. It is a lot better now with the hold formation button. Still not perfect, but your observations that units always attack the center is bang on unfortunately it has been present since Empire and I doubt it will be re worked.

[prithupaul]

Patch 7 beta is a big improvement. Each soldier within an unit is indeed staying in formation much better. But the whole units themselves are still strafing and turning when in contact with enemy, breaking the army's battle line, creating gaps, presenting flanks to the enemy etc. If they are able to stop the units from moving and make them stand their ground like pike phalanx, it will become as awesome as it is meant to be. Rome 2 will get there I think.

[AgentGB]

I am sorry for this wall of text, i appeared to have gotten carried away again.

I imagine its a bit late in the day for such a thing to happen. As i mentioned, you don't really notice it as much with the vanilla unit sizes, it only becomes apparent when using large or extreme. In the second picture that is large unit sizes, Beta patch 7.

In Empire & Napoleon: its not so apparent, since the player is encoruaged to stretch his line/army thin & parallel to the enemy, to maximise field of fire, meaning in any inevitable engagement with the lines meeting, a more established line is formed, and blobbing isn't apparent. Basically it seems to work alot better here, and doesn't see much of a issue. Even with larger unit sizes, because of the period the game is set in, blobbing is a rarer sight.

Shogun 2: Units would blob or get more mangled/intertwined with each other, which felt fine suited to the period of warfare, although always used vanilla unit sizes for this, so wasn't to much of a problem. Since vanilla unit sizes are to small to give any reasoning for the mechanics as ive mentioned.

Fall of the samurai: seems more like Empire/Napoleon Vs Shogun 2, in the sense one side is using tactics of drawn out lines for field of fire, the other a blobbing tactic for the most part.

Rome 2: Now the units strafting to engage the center of another unit, may look okayish with vanilla unit sizes, but even when using larger or extreme unit sizes, not to mention modified unit sizes of 2-300 units, that it really becomes a flaw. In patch 7 beta, the AI seems to counter/engage any unit you charge while try to flank outwards which does help to establish a front line forming of some sort. But as i mentioned seems somewhat unnatural when units look like there steering towards each other, again only really apparent with larger unit sizes.

Also factions with pikemen seems to greatly benefit from this, like in the picture shown above. Were lines can be layered, due to no depth restriction, forcing the AI or player to always enagage the center of a unit, unless attempting to force your way through which usually results in to many losses or your troops routing. Once your troops begin to blob, hoplites can be sent through the pikelines to flank/encircle. You can replicate the ai into blobbing with other factions if your willing to fodder a stretched out unit in the center, with units behind ready to reinforce the fodder unit appropriately and flank, while the AI will throw a majority of its units into the fodder unit. Pikes just tend to do a better job at this and are easier to overlap with each other, and when layering them like in the above picture can repel generally all attacks very quickly once you engage the 2nd line to counter advance through the romans or stand in a overlapped position.



The suggestion i put forward, although meant that lines could still apear broken if this is used, although with being able to turn guard mode off, would allow the unit to take more advantage and balloon out, like that of Rome 1, it would reduce blobbing just as well, and stop the exploit of the AI allowing itself to be flanked by creating its own "battle of canne" by default.
Although as you guys mentioned, its to far in the pipeline to probably be achieveable, but would like to see if CA would futureproof the game for modding at a later date, when hopefully bigger unit sizes in all its splendor can be appreciated. But while units are always drawn to the center of another unit with no depth restrictions, it means it will remain a exploit, while slightly robbing some of the tactical element from advancing at a certain angle, and imo will make mods (Darth Mod predecessors) not really worth playing due to how unnatural it would look, also it would mean making house rules for MP campaigns, like no Pike factions, unless both players take pike factions.

Being able to have a unit that will attack the closes flank of a said unit when coming from a angle could probably make a huge visual difference, instead of having a unit trying to shift itself to a center of a enemy unit, i honestly believe that units trying to align themselves to each other looks unnatural, even if seems unnoticeable in vanilla unit sizes. Since unit sizes are far to small to validate this suggestion to be worth the time, unless they wished to expand on this to hopefully see some epic like darth mods. But i do understand that as some of you mentioned it probably won't happen due to it breaking a ton the game and working from the ground up gain. But if METW3 is in the pipeline, i do fear that the same problem will remain, and the game won't play that much different then Rome 2 itself, in a slight arcadey fashion due to the unnatural center to center action, and i believe blobbing will remain.

For me i was hopping Rome 2 was going to stand the test of time, with mods etc, but i can't see how modders can improve on this, and blobing and moshing will remain. They have it almost right with the current introduction of new formations, and the guard mode, while units do seem to try and establish/hold a line, but the intial charge of a center to center unit plays to the outcome of the battle, were as the player should have the free choice to attack more directy on whatever part of the unit you clicked on, even if you could hold down "ctrl" or somthing to override the default center to center attack when you wish to be more surgical in your attacking.

I would like to see a roma surretum 2 or the likes for Rome 2 in the future, but i know these sorta mods like darth mod like to use huge unit sizes, and my thus reasoning for seeing if it is possbile, since im sure CA have already thought about this and its nothing new, or if it was a engine limitation.

Should have put a poll up, just to see out of curiosity, to get an idea of how people felt on this, on an average. Since some people may believe the current system works to a point, and the trouble and benefit of adding somthing like this would or may not be noticeable during gameplay. But i feel it may solve blobbing/moshing from happening alot more often.

[rob-a-dogg]

you would first have to stop men from being able to spread out too much as this system would involved combatant polygons to aim for each others centroids, and each polygon (3 per unit in this example) would grow/shrink/reshape based on the number and position of its constituent soldiers.
Better would be one poly per unit with each soldier in each unit given a spatial value so that when attacking as many men from X polygon impacted men on the other at the same time as possible

[AgentGB]

you would first have to stop men from being able to spread out too much as this system would involved combatant polygons to aim for each others centroids, and each polygon (3 per unit in this example) would grow/shrink/reshape based on the number and position of its constituent soldiers.
Better would be one poly per unit with each soldier in each unit given a spatial value so that when attacking as many men from X polygon impacted men on the other at the same time as possible

You may have to describe that in lamen terms for me please, i understand what you said, with your reasonings for why the intial idea of having 3 "polys" to a unit may not work, but could you explain further on the bit in bold? The alternative your suggesting im not to clear on what you mean? but sounds like you may be on to somthing? or giving an example of how its currently working and the reasoning why?

You mention spatial value? is this kinda like what we see in the earlier Rome/ME:TW were units will space themselves out or balloon out? kinda the opposite of blobbing/moshing? or are you suggesting an alternative way to make better direct attacks on a unit instead of it defaulting the center?

[AgentGB]

Another example of the blobbing occuring, because of the center to center attack, made in another thread.

Tested it with the recent update to see if anything changed, i would say there still pretty unbeatable if used correctly "rolling waves", against a human player it could have been tricky, but using pike troops requires little micro managment, as opposed to a roman player having to make use of his pila by feinting attacks, it would be a click fest to whittle it down effectively.

Here how i mean below: notice the blobbing, when stretching units out, most of them ran straight for the center, and 3 rows of levy pikes held them in place. Thats why there should be a depth restriction, or give infantry the use to auto fire there pila's/jav maybe?

Pikes work great in 3 line waves, using two line waves is a bit hit or miss, and of course don't get flanked.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mods using bigger unit sizes, this can become a pain or a way to slaughter the ai quite easily, especially since the pikemen can sprint while in there brace formation, and no depth restriction. Just fodder some leve up front to take the missle blows