Main Discussion Thread

[Ngugi]

I'm not unaware of that, nor do I propose that the game should be let 'hands off' just because turn 1 has passed, that would be cheap game making
I do not oppose machinations to secure that key characters will be in the game, nor restrictions to avoid conceptual improprieties for sure.

What I am getting at is that folk will play this game because they delight in the era and peoples of it, and do want to get their own shot at 'writing the history of Beleriand'. Playing Hitlum I do not play to see a celibate Fingon get mashed into pulp by Gothmog and his realm lost, but I play to have him survive, Hitlum triumph and Fingon meeting a pretty Elf and get baby Elves that carry on the heritage of the mighty Fiingolfin.
My point is, there should be a balance there between what the creator(s) set up, how they deem they should restrict the player, and what is handed to the player to create the experience he/she is there for. To restrict Finrod from being allowed to merry would, in my opinion as a future player of this game, be one such instance of to go to far with restrictions, however well-intentioned the reasons, as, if I want to play as the book is written, it's my option to simply not marry him, and if I want to create my own history (as I at any rate do, playing) it should be my choice to marry him.

[DieWalküre]

Shame on me, I wrote that I didn't want to start a discussion, but I did it

Nevertheless, my interest in the 'genealogical tree matter' was linked to the evergreen (for me XD) idea of having female characters on the game, at least the three most notable (Melian, Galadriel and Lúthien).
Galadriel could be for example included as a warrior general, even if the game recognises her as a man, since she would have total restrictions on the possibility to marry another woman; and so there would be the illusion of her being a female general (apart from her voice on the map or in battle, which would be a secondary thing) and you could thus avoid the restrictions of the RTW engine about female characters).
The same thing about Melian and Lúthien (with all their differences).

I completely agree with you Ngugi on the TW games being 'blank pages' on which you have the right to write whatever you want (or portray characters the way you like ), within the very general boundaries of the lore; if it were for me I would use Galadriel to slay armies of Orcs, personally kick Fëanor's ass and finally assault Angband with Eönwë

But, as Bercor wrote, there must be defined limits to avoid 'unbearable abominations' and every race has its own natural characteristics and the game has to be balanced (I was in fact referring to the balance of the game in the previous comments); otherwise the Elves would have a lot of strong and immortal characters, instead of 'limited' generals but immortal and really strong (I assume that most of the 'Royals' of the Noldor will have a great amount of experience, since they are immortal and come from Aman).

Now I will stop, because it's the Units' Preview thread and I don't want to be punished for spamming in inappropriate threads

[Bercor]

No worries, I moved everything to the discussion thread .

[Tar-Falassion]

Hello everyone I yet have to find a mod which raises my interest more than this mod does (well, I guess this is completely normal since no mod has ever explored this era before), and I am amazed by the work you have accomplished so far !


Question : Is the final campaign map done ? Are we to see a preview of it soon ?

Question 2 : I read that Carcharoth was getting his own model, will Draugluin be there as well ? (if yes, I suppose he'll be part of Sauron's horde) And will the units of the Brood of Sauron be composed of many "demons" ? (werewolves, vampire-bats, ghosts, ...)
And since the game is supposed to start before Dagor Bragollach, before Sauron turns the original Minas Tirith into Tol-in-Gaurhoth, where will he start from ?

Question 3 : Are Giant Spiders going to be present in the Ered Gorgoroth and the Nan Dungortheb ? Might we eventually have a surprise appearance of Shelob ?

[Bercor]

Welcome to the forum Tar-Falassion . Hope you'll enjoy your stay.

Question : Is the final campaign map done ? Are we to see a preview of it soon ?

The map it's still wip. You can see a preview of it here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...w-Campaign-Map

Question 2 : I read that Carcharoth was getting his own model, will Draugluin be there as well ? (if yes, I suppose he'll be part of Sauron's horde) And will the units of the Brood of Sauron be composed of many "demons" ? (werewolves, vampire-bats, ghosts, ...)
And since the game is supposed to start before Dagor Bragollach, before Sauron turns the original Minas Tirith into Tol-in-Gaurhoth, where will he start from ?

Yes, Draugluin is planned.

Sauron's armies will encompass both werewolves and fell beasts (the later nazgul mounts), but not vampires or ghosts as we feel they wouldn't work as an military unit.

All three Evil factions will start around Angband and expand from there.

Question 3 : Are Giant Spiders going to be present in the Ered Gorgoroth and the Nan Dungortheb ? Might we eventually have a surprise appearance of Shelob ?

Still under discussion, though Shelob's appearance in the mod is highly improbable.

[Tar-Falassion]

Thank you for your very complete answers, I'm going to enjoy watching this mod reach full completion

I also must say, I'm very enthusiast at the idea of actually seeing a pre-Akallabêth Sauron model, I really wonder how you are going to represent him with his full powers and his fair appearance !!!

[Bercor]

We already showed a pic of the model. You can see it here:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/silmarilli...hanks#imagebox

[DieWalküre]

Some questions about the settlements: you (the Team) said that in the first release the settlements will remain the same as the vanilla game's ones.

I suppose that the Noldor will have Hellenic settlements, the Evil Men Persian/Middle Eastern ones and the Orcs Celtic/Germanic camps; am I right? And the other factions (Edain, Wood Elves, Sindar, Dwarves)?
Will you create anyway new and special icons for the structures and change their function?
For example, instead of temple of Zeus, temple of Manwë for the Noldor; even though I think that the sons of Fëanor aren't so loyal and 'religious' towards the Valar XD (they should probably have temples in honour of Fëanor and Finwë).

Obviously if they are 'top secret' topics, I won't expect to have answers

[Bercor]

I suppose that the Noldor will have Hellenic settlements, the Evil Men Persian/Middle Eastern ones and the Orcs Celtic/Germanic camps; am I right? And the other factions (Edain, Wood Elves, Sindar, Dwarves)?

Well, we haven't discussed that yet, but this is how the cultures are set up right now:
- Noldor - Greek
- Sindar - Greek
- Edain - Barbarian
- Easterlings - Egyptian
- Dwarves - Carthaginian
- Morgoth - Roman

This is subject to change, of course.

Will you create anyway new and special icons for the structures and change their function?

That's the plan .

For example, instead of temple of Zeus, temple of Manwë for the Noldor; even though I think that the sons of Fëanor aren't so loyal and 'religious' towards the Valar XD (they should probably have temples in honour of Fëanor and Finwë).

Peredhel is in charge of the building roster, so he is better able to answer to that than I.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

For example, instead of temple of Zeus, temple of Manwë for the Noldor; even though I think that the sons of Fëanor aren't so loyal and 'religious' towards the Valar XD (they should probably have temples in honour of Fëanor and Finwë).

Temples generally aren't an Elven thing. And at most I'd expect the Sons of Fëanor to have built a 'ceremonial' grave for their father. (What is the word for a tomb that doesn't actually have someone buried there, again?)

[DieWalküre]

Temples generally aren't an Elven thing. And at most I'd expect the Sons of Fëanor to have built a 'ceremonial' grave for their father. (What is the word for a tomb that doesn't actually have someone buried there, again?)

Yes, it's true, but I wrote 'temples' for a quick and easier explanation, since the RTW system works in this way.
The Elves of Aman, however, (and maybe in Middle Earth) have some kind of sanctuaries consecrated to Eru and, secondarily, to the Valar; even though they wouldn't need the last ones, since the 'Archangels' live personally among them.

Probably the word you are referring to is 'memorial'

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Elves do not really have an organised religion. The Númenóreans had their Priest-Kings, and a holy place in Meneltarma, but for the Elves? There are some mentions of prayers, and invoking Eru at weddings, but nothing else. Not holy places, or anything like that. I think Fourth Age handled it well, having buildings like the Gardens of the Golden Light or whatever, functioning as memorials to the Two Trees.

[DieWalküre]

Yes, they do not have an organised religion, because a lot of them live in Valinor, directly beside the Ainur; they nonetheless know very well the 'hierarchy' of the Universe and its Cosmogony, since they were personally taught by the Valar themselves about this matter.
They in fact love and respect the order of the World and so the authority of Eru and the Valar upon it; the Elves were thus the first ones to make the other races aware of the existence of the Ainur and of the Good in Arda.

So, speaking about the game, since the Mod will deal with the Eldar that are exiled in Beleriand, the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin could be able to build sanctuaries or memorials to honour the Valar and the Light of Aman that they chose to abandon (as if they had nostalgia of the Undying Lands and hoped for the forgiveness of 'The Powers').

The other Elves, since they have never been to Aman or has disowned the authority of the Valar, could build memorials for the Stars (Doriath, Sindar and Wood Elves) or for their ancestors (House of Fëanor).
Probably the Falathrim have also sanctuaries consecrated to Ulmo and his Maiar.

[Peredhel]

Well the building allready exist as place-holders but their effects and names can be open to discussions. The way I see it there will not be religious sanctuaries since Elves don't seem to pray in temples or things like that : they revere Eru and the Valar through their creations and realms (the Falathrim love Ossë so they live close of the sea just like the Gondolindrim who loves Ulmo built fountains for his water). However there will be buildings with special effects related to the Valar or to the most important figures of each house : some will be unique (like the Mound of Haleth : Haudh-en-Arwen) and some buildable (like the Fountain of the King in Gondolin).

As for a "grave" or a "mound" for Fëanor (that will be quite like Elendil's on Amon Anwar) I don't think Elves would do such a thing without a body (it is said of Fëanor for example : "he had neither burial nor tomb") but in The Fall of Gondolin an Arch of Ingwë is mentionned and I imagined that the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin could build Archs like that dedicated to Finwë to honor their father/grand-father and fallen leader just like the sons of Fëanor could build an arch to their beloved father. Another interisting aspect of it is that that type of building allready exist ingame (even though I'm not sure it will ressemble a roman arch) so it will be easier to implement.

Another building that could resemble a "religious building" are the Gardens of the Yavannildi in which a special corn grew to be used to make Lembas. Given that Lembas is some kind of sacramental bread I guess you could consider it as some sort of sacred building.

[Tar-Falassion]

About those cultural/religious buildings, inspiration could also be taken from Third Age Total War, in this one Elves cultural buildings are art-related. Things like "concert hall" or "singing hall" could be a good "religious building" to implement for the Laiquendi of Ossiriand, for instance, or even Doriath.

Plus, I love the idea of Archs in memory of late leaders, but what would be even more interesting imo would have been to take this idea further and use the concept of marvels, with the possibility of winning on the cultural plan by erecting several buildings of great importance -- although I admit that it doesn't stick with the concept of survival of the "Good" factions that this mod is about.



Aside from that Bercor, have a question concerning a character of the First Age that most forget about : will you include in any manner Thuringwethil in Sauron's army ?
Not necessarily as a "bat" creature though, but as a shadowy female Maia general, like what you did for Sauron ? Or are you going to feature her as an ancillary for the Lord of Werewolves ?

[Bercor]

Not in Sauron's army, no. However, we might represent her through an ancillary (as you said), making her a spy/diplomat for Sauron's faction or even both.

[Ngugi]

...diplomat for Sauron's faction...

Would be most spot on

...Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband;

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Would be most spot on

I think that if the player were to get the most use out of her, she probably should be an ancillary. Because, to be honest, diplomats in Total War games are kind of useless.

[Tar-Falassion]

I think that if the player were to get the most use out of her, she probably should be an ancillary. Because, to be honest, diplomats in Total War games are kind of useless.

Well, except when you want to obtain maps, trade rights, tribute, ceasefire, new region without having to fight for it, ...

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Well, except when you want to obtain maps, trade rights, tribute, ceasefire, new region without having to fight for it, ...

Do you truly believe those things will be possible in a Silmarillion mod for the Angband factions?