Kallikratis's Greek Project

[Kallikratis]

I think you are right.

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

im loving the corinthian and the royal spartans. god damn i want them bad!

[Agathon]

I think it's funny that so many of the known experts seem fixated on the Lakedaimonians ... er ... Spartans. There must be 12 to 24 Spartan skins floating around the center for every single authentic "Hellenic" (non-Hollywoodized or fantasy) Ptolemaic Egyptian royal pikeman ... No! Scratch that! There actually are no Egyptians who don't resemble relics of the 18th Dynasty or extras in some 1950's era biblical epic film.

As for helmets, weren't there some late Corinthian-types that had hinged cheek plates that could be lowered or raised by the wearer? Such a feature surely must have afforded the wearer the option of better visibility and ventilation when needed as opposed to good face protection when lowered. I'm sure that I've seen a good number of them in red-figure ceramic paintings with the cheek-guards raised.

As for Kallikratis' work, it's excellent! I'd like to download and try some of them out when they're finished. I may be an amateur, but I know what I like.

By the way, I remember being in a hobby shop looking over one of those miniature model painters' guide books that featured classic greek soldiers (instead of the usual ones that feature D&D avatars or WWII SS Panzergrenadiers). It really shocked me at the time that the Theban Sacred Band types were represented in the field as armed nudes much like the nude helmeted cloaked figures from the "Lion Hunt" mosaic excavated at the cemetary at Pella in Macedonia. I was wondering if anyone out there could verify this. :hmmm:

[Locky]

I think it's funny that so many of the known experts seem fixated on the Lakedaimonians ... er ... Spartans. There must be 12 to 24 Spartan skins floating around the center for every single authentic "Hellenic" (non-Hollywoodized or fantasy) Ptolemaic Egyptian royal pikeman ... No! Scratch that! There actually are no Egyptians who don't resemble relics of the 18th Dynasty or extras in some 1950's era biblical epic film.

As for helmets, weren't there some late Corinthian-types that had hinged cheek plates that could be lowered or raised by the wearer? Such a feature surely must have afforded the wearer the option of better visibility and ventilation when needed as opposed to good face protection when lowered. I'm sure that I've seen a good number of them in red-figure ceramic paintings with the cheek-guards raised.

As for Kallikratis' work, it's excellent! I'd like to download and try some of them out when they're finished. I may be an amateur, but I know what I like.

By the way, I remember being in a hobby shop looking over one of those miniature model painters' guide books that featured classic greek soldiers (instead of the usual ones that feature D&D avatars or WWII SS Panzergrenadiers). It really shocked me at the time that the Theban Sacred Band types were represented in the field as armed nudes much like the nude helmeted cloaked figures from the "Lion Hunt" mosaic excavated at the cemetary at Pella in Macedonia. I was wondering if anyone out there could verify this. :hmmm:

Last bit, is nothing but "heroic nudity", that the Greeks were rather fond of. Hoplites did not fight naked.

[Agathon]

That may be true, Locky, but they seem to have been rather unashamed of it. Eastern peoples found the natural exhibitionism of the Greeks a favourite topic for cultural ridicule. Red figure ceramic paintings are loaded with hoplites wearing light pleated chitons under their armour that would make my girlfriend blush if she were given something similar to wear as a nightgown.

[Racer X]

OK, I'm going to ramble on about historical Spartans, 'cause they're my speciality, so don't be insulted. First of all, once the army's uniform was standardized, all shields were painted with the lambda, the upside down V thing. No, it is not Alexander the Great's symbol. His was the Vergina Sun, the pointy star thing that's in a lot of mods. So it was not reserved for the "elite." Unless the mod is before, when Sparta was still growing, all shields would be blazoned with the lambda. The lambda is the Greek "L," standing for Lakedamonia, or Lakonia.

By standardized uniform, you mean Peloponessian War era, right? Because they certainly didn't have lamvthas when they still wore Corinthian helmets and bronze cuirasses.

Everybody says that RTW's Spartans are inaccurate. In truth, their one of the most accurate units in the game. Everybody wants tons of metal, Corinthian helmets, plumes, red capes, and other things. They wore this around the Persian Wars, but not for long. Soon, heavy armor was being discarded for maneuverability as more advanced battle tactics were evolving. Spartans discarded their armor later than other city-states, but still did, and wore exactly what they do in RTW. The open-faced Pilos or Pylos helmet, the crimson cloak, and the plain shield adorned with the lambda was all they had. If this mod is during the Persian Wars, then go ahead with the crowd-pleasing uniforms, but there were no Spartan Royal Hoplites or any of the kind. Your Spartan Royal Hoplite is fine, just make the shield bronze with a red lambda.

This was all they had in around 400 BC. After around 339 BC they began to adopt armour again, influenced by the Macedonians. By 270 they appeared like your regular phalangites. This was so they wouldn't suffer so much against the Achaean league. Use logic - they got rid of their armour in the late 5th century because they were fighting faster units. In the same way, they brought their armour back because they were fighting syntagmas and phalangites in the late 4th century. So in actuality, the RTW Spartans are some of the most inaccurate units in the game.

[Agathon]

That's the way that I've read it too, Racer X. After significant Hoplite failures against light troops in battles like Pylos/Sphacteria and Leuctra, the overall trend in armouring among Greek states was to make the traditional heavy infantry lighter, and light infantry heavier in the century between Alcibiades and Alexander. (This, by the way, Is one reason I tend to favour more expensive heavy peltasts over their basic armourless cousins). By the time the romans were fighting in the Greek homeland (and conquering it) in the second century, the tendency had long reversed itself again. At Cynoscephalae and Pydna the Romans faced ponderous slow-moving Macedonian and "allied" phalanx formations made up of the heaviest armoured pikemen to date.

[King_Leonidas]

Great work! im eagerly awaiting the release, but one question:
Why are most of the units in red, i thought Spartans were the only ones who wore the crimson colours to battle?

[Spartan II]

Meh, I'm embarassed. You're right about the Spartans re-using the cuirass, but it wasn't as a result to the Macedonians. It was influenced by the Theban general Epaminondas. A statue of King Archidamus III, dating from the 360s (BC) is shown wearing a leather cuirass. I'm not sure whether the Spartans re-adopted the metal bell or muscle cuirass or leather ones.

About the lambda, as I think I said, it just depends on when this is. So yes, if this is during the Persian Wars, than every shield should be different.

[Locky]

Meh, I'm embarassed. You're right about the Spartans re-using the cuirass, but it wasn't as a result to the Macedonians. It was influenced by the Theban general Epaminondas. A statue of King Archidamus III, dating from the 360s (BC) is shown wearing a leather cuirass. I'm not sure whether the Spartans re-adopted the metal bell or muscle cuirass or leather ones.

About the lambda, as I think I said, it just depends on when this is. So yes, if this is during the Persian Wars, than every shield should be different.

They used muscled. They dissed the bell as soon as 490ish BCE, and by all means 10 years ealier they were using the bronze muscled bell cuirasses, they altered equipment at quite astoundingly speeds. They probably wore linen and bronze muscled cuirasses.

Your skins look pretty good, Kallikratis.

[Racer X]

Well, Spartan, if you're correct on your Epaminondas accusation, then you have no right to be ashamed, since I thought that the Thebans at Leuktra were also relatively lightly armoured.

As for red costumes, Leonidas - around the 4th century all the other states started to wear red too, although this was not the case in the Persian Wars.

[Keravnos]

ΜΠΡΑΒΟ ΚΑΛΛΙΚΡΑΤΗ!

Corinthian Helmet Hoplites are an aesthetic standard which has stood the test of time. It defines Greece. If you look at civ 4 for example, greece is defined by a corinthean helmet en face.

Corinthian helmet looks so DAMN good that you could put if over a ww1 trooper and still have little or non complaints.

[Mr.Plaice]

ΜΠΡΑΒΟ ΚΑΛΛΙΚΡΑΤΗ!

Corinthian Helmet Hoplites are an aesthetic standard which has stood the test of time. It defines Greece. If you look at civ 4 for example, greece is defined by a corinthean helmet en face.

Corinthian helmet looks so DAMN good that you could put if over a ww1 trooper and still have little or non complaints.

I agree. Corinthian helmets are a symbol for Greek military history. I've played the game and i agree with Keravnos. Also if you play Age of Mythology, all Greek units are equipped with a Corinthian helmet.

[Racer X]

I agree. Corinthian helmets are a symbol for Greek military history. I've played the game and i agree with Keravnos. Also if you play Age of Mythology, all Greek units are equipped with a Corinthian helmet.

No, they're not. A lot of them actually just wear helmets that didn't even exist, resembling Attics or Thracians mostly (Hypaspist, Myrmidon etc.) and at least two are equipped with Petasus hats (Gastraphetes and Prodomos)... in fact the only units I can recall off the top of my head that have Corinthians are Achilles, Hoplites and Hyppikons (and if you look closely at their skins, they don't even have noseguards). I generally design my own skins for AOM for these reasons - I've got a hoplite with an Illyrian helmet, for example. Just wanted to make these corrections.

No doubt the Corinthian helmets are probably the most famous helmet of all time, or at least for the ancient period - but by no means should they be abused for this reason, too much of a good thing is a lame thing.

[Kallikratis]

I've corrected some of the previous units. Look below:

[A$TAR-519]

Hey Kall, Nice work done lately, congrats
BTW great history going on here, and to fill you guys in the most recognizable things that identify ancient greece was the corthian helmet, and the lambda, sometimes the aspis also.

[A$TAR-519]

Btw can you please add gloss? My PC is dying to to go on max graphics

[Roman_Man#3]

wow these look great. are you going to make cavalry? and are you going to reskin the roman, carthaginians etc?

[Kallikratis]

and are you going to reskin the roman, carthaginians etc?

For now, i give high priority to the Greek culture. I have stared the modification of the Greek City States and according to my mod's popularity, i will proceed to the modification of the whole Greek factions ( Seleucids, Macedonians, Thracians) and perhaps later the remaining cultures. Notice that in my recent release only the Greek City States will be modified. It will something like a beta version.

About Vuk's question, i might edit the campaign map somehow by adding some famous Greek cities (Thebes, Argos e.tc.) but for now i can't do this since i have to import the new units and create their descriptions, attributes, icons e.t.c. plus i am not very good at the mapping aspect of the game.

[Cyrus the Virus]

Happy birthday..