A word about Celtic cross and Roman Catholics.

[edmont]

I've already got question WASN'T Irish church independant in the begininnig?I remember reading whole trilogy about that.And I've also read that in Britain first Christians were baptised by Irish for if not from where this beatiful Celtic cross came?Not from Roman Catholics that's for sure!

[Agraes]

Hi edmont, sorry I miss your post

Celtic Christianity will be added in the next update if everything is ok. It is not Britons that were christianised by Irish, Patrick was a Briton for exemple. However, it's true that the Irish did a lot to convert the pagan Anglo-Saxons to Christianism. Britons ("Welsh") didn't want to have anything to do with the Saxons, but Irish did help their conversion, especially in Northumbria.

I let the word to Anthony who is specialist about the question

[Anthony]

No, they were part of what would be the Catholic church, technically. They did send payments of tribute to Rome. However, the early church was divided into various patriarchates (like the modern Orthodox church, and technically there remain patriarchates in Catholic church, but most of them are united in the 'Roman' rite). What existed were 'rites'. However, the 'Celtic' rite wasn't that different from the 'Gallo-Roman'. The only real differences we know of are that the Celtic church engaged in full body immersion baptism, and the tonsure worn by religious was the entire front of the head being shaved, not the center of the head, and various bits of liturgy, and sermons were given in the local language, not Latin or Greek.

It's more nationalism or ignorance that drives the idea that the two were completely seperate, the theory didn't even exist until the early 1800s when Anglican missioners pushed it as a way to convert the Irish by trying to disavow any relations with Rome. The first Irish Christians were British slaves though, and were part of the Gallo-Roman rite. St. Patrick's Christians were of a new rite, but still in union with the patriarchates, and thus not 'indepedent'. While the Irish lacked much direct contact with Rome, before joining the Roman rite, they still accepted requests to go on crusades, engaged in ecunemical councils with Rome, etc. Due to their ambiguity though, after the Schism, they maintained good relations with the Orthodox church, but still provided Peter's Pence to Rome and celebrated the election of new popes with great feasts.

Celtic Christianity will be in, but it's more representative of something else. Early Irish Christianity was very confused with mixtures of pagan and Christian attitudes and actions (which remain to an extent). However, even they weren't indepedent. There was money sent (a great deal) from Rome to fund missions to encourage more orthodoxy among them and to build schools to educate them. What emerged was the 'Celtic Church', a Christian church in unity with the other primates and patriarchs, not indepedent. It was not readily at odds with 'Roman' Christians, though it did except the Roman liturgy after the First Crusade to ensure the Pope of loyalty (which they already possessed, but wished to reinforce).

An example of Celtic and Roman unity was when Brian Boru became king of Ireland. Ireland was still practicing it's own rite. However, the Pope, through the Primate of Britain, sent him congratulations and he was awarded official recognition by the church title of 'Scotorum Imperator', and sent gifts as recognition and celebration due to his 'loyalty to the Holy Church'. Different rite, same church.

The disparity between the two later wasn't so important. Early in the period, the Celtic rite was ladden with pagan influence heavily though, and, while other Christians abided them well enough, there was still an amount of distrust. Further, they were a subject of the raiding wars of pagans, who hated them most of all in Ireland, viewing them as heretical or schismatic from the old religion. Direct contact between Ireland and Rome though was non-existent between Palladius and the Crusades, instead they contacted eachother through the British bishops.

Also, the Celtic cross in its most recognizable form wasn't Irish. It was actually made by Christianized Saxons who exported them to Ireland who began copying the stlye. Same as knotwork, began in early Saxon Christian works as book margin filling. Many Saxon monks inhabited Ireland, and Ireland, being the center of scribing in western Europe, began to use it in general for many things, until it appeared on richer garments as bordering even, and was carved on crosses.

An example of rites in the modern Catholic Church are mostly the middle eastern rites which remained. Chalcedon, Syriac Catholics, etc. They're not 'Roman' Catholic, but they are loyal to the Roman pontiff and in communion with Rome, though they observe their own traditions and rites. Some even have non-celibate clergy. It doesn't mean they're indepedent though.

[edmont]

Thanks for answer and great that this feature would be added in your next version!

[Henry of Grosmont]

However, it's true that the Irish did a lot to convert the pagan Anglo-Saxons to Christianism.

No. Saxons were baptised in classical Roman way. Neither Britons, nor Irish had their hands in that. After the Saxons became christians, and especially in Heptarchy time, when saxons and britons began to cooperate (assimilate), celtic priest made their way...

[Anthony]

Celtic missioners did have a part in converting the Saxons, though there was more continental than Celtic influence. The Celtic influx of missioners came after most were in the Gallo-Roman rite, and had gone to Ireland for education and to work as scribes, sparking interest in Gaelic clergy in the Saxons. Irish wrote of them wearing the Roman tonsure, not the Celtic one, and that they engaged in the Roman baptism (not full body immersion), except in the northern most parts.

[Agraes]

Lindisfarne was an irish monastery. Deirans, Bernicians and then Northumbrians were influenced by Celtic monks. Edwin of Deira stayed for a while at the Gwynedd court, and if I remember well, its Oswiu of Northumbria that seek refuge to Iona and was baptised there.

But its true that, for exemple, Kent and East Englia became christians under the weight of continental influence, at the beginning of the VIIth century.