{DIK} Discussion

[Faraxius]

CANT SAY WHY I CANT EDIT MISTAKES FROM MY PREVIOUS POST!!!!!!
I HAVE TO REWRITE IT WITH CORRECTIONS HERE..SORRY FOR REPEATING IT AGAIN

So I've updated the link.

Thanks I will check it out on the next days. I can't wait a 3.3 real version to try my campaign go further

Well, the english translation is already quite finished so I don't want stop that now

your choice

Looking forward to your comparison

Here it is


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COMPARISONS STARTING FROM THE NORTH
Your map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4_shepherd.jpg
My map: http://www2.zippyshare.com/i/3507467...20factions.bmp
Third map: (found later): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._1494_topo.svg
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Your map: SWITZERLAND
My map: CONFEDERAZIONE ELVETICA
German name: Eidgenossenschaft
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Version 6: Switzerland(Schweiz) and Swiss confederation(Eidgenossenschaft) can be considered the same name. Since historically it was a confederation of regions it's better to call it like it is now: German: Eidgenossenschaft, English: swiss confederation
Italian: confederazione elvetica.
It was born in 1291, from three communities: Uri, Schwyz and Unterwalden. Then became officially and formally authorized after Sempach(1386) and Nefels(1388) battles. Cantons added were: Lucerne, Zurich, Glarus, Zug, Berne (you may probably design cantons with towns and provinces for this faction). The victory of Nancy (1477) against Burgundy (Burgundy then became integrated into France) marked for the Confederacy's rise to the status of power European Union. Added in 1481 Freiburg and Solothurn cantons.
At this stage they started a war against Habsburg faction and they won to become what they are now. In 1501 they got Basel and Schaffhausen and into 1513 Appenzell. In game terms that means they start at WAR against Great Duchy of Austria and Basel Schaffhausen and Appenzell must be represented as rebel towns or part of Austria.
Furtherly Switzerland allied with Papal States first fighting against Mailand then against French kingdom. That may be useful to know in diplomacy attitude.






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Your map: doesn't make any mention
My map: Archduchy of Austria
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Version 6: German name:Erzherzogtum Österreich Italian name: Arciducato d'Austria English name: Archduchy of Austria.
Your map doesn't mention it as a political faction, simply reporting some of its region like Tyrol and Carinthia. What's worst there is no
distinction from Austria and Bishopric of Trent. My map is more detailed and correct here.
To understand further let's forget for a while about Austria and let's go to a possible new faction



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Your map: B. of Trent
My map: prince-bishopric municipality of Trent
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Version 6: again my map here is better. It clearly shows this faction as indipendent. Your map mentions it but do not distinguish it as indipendent country. Reason is the same it applied for Swiss, Hungary and Austria. Your map is focused into "Italy" only so everything outside Italy is forgotten. My map then should be a better reference for this region. B. should stay for Bishopric that is a county controlled by a religious leader: a Bishop.
History distinguishes p.b.m of Trent from Tyrol county, the latter belonging to Austria duchy. Lot of the story depicts the Tyrol trying to take control of Trent being them often part of the same federation. The p.b.m of Trent was created with some uncertainty into 1004 (Henry II) or 1027 (Comrad II) with a real Prince. So it starts as a part of the Holy Roman Empire and tried to stay a vassal of the Emperor in opposition to the growing treat of Tyrol county which was firstly part of the Holy Roman Empire then worked out to become indipendent until being incorporated into gran duchy of Austria for dynastic dynamics. So we can consider Tyrol to Austria and Trent as HRE region being a fact their political contrast. Duke Frederick IV of Austria obtained the government of Tyrol county in 1406. In 1420 he was to establish Innsbruck as the residence of the governor of Tyrol. In 1490 his son and heir, Sigismund gave up the Tyrol and High Austria in favor of his cousin, the king of Germany Maximilian I of Habsburg. By doing so Maximilian I gathered all the possessions of the Habsburgs in their own hands. Tyrol at this age is a region of the Holy Roman Empire. Trent and Tyrol became confederated in 1511.
In game terms you can give Trent and Tyrol same kind of units, maybe different colours and being them different factions.
To better design your campaign map get a look here where you can FIND PERFECT towns, rivers, roads and borders of the two factions:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-cary-1799.jpg
Main towns for Trent should be Trent, Roveredo
Flag: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Trento.png
Put there a silver mine and Garda lake.
For Tyrol don't forget Meran, Bozen, Brixen, Sterzing Glurns, Leinz, Clausen, Halls, Inspruck (Innsbruck), Rattenberg, Kuffstein (I am not sure they are already in since I can't play the game anymore)
Trent: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trient
In the italian version you can find flags and banner: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trento http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TrentoGonfalone.png
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Trento.png whose origins are ancient so you can base on them for units.
Regents of Trent (bishops): http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vescovi_di_Trento http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzbistum_Trient


Tyrol: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ar...y_of_Tyrol.svg http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Tirol.svg
Regents of Tyrol: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contea_del_Tirolo (I can help for translation but looking at years you can have idea about names of Prince)




Back to
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Your map: doesn't make any mention
My map: Archduchy of Austria
German name: Erzherzogtum Österreich
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Again your map doesn't mention it cause it's outside Italian focus. But of course we ARE interested into this faction. Formally it was part of the Holy Roman Empire untill it was officially recognized as an archyduchy only in 1453, when the Habsburgs took control of the government of the Holy Roman Empire, with Frederick V (Frederick III of Habsburg). Austria was the only state that ever became archduchy. From this year on further we should refer to Habsburg for news about his history. They were a great family and they be considered a very important one in the "name" of Holy Roman Empire. You can get from there units, towns, and flags.
As for news we have better to look at all duchy forming the main state. Here you may find all subprovinces with maps and regents.
Sources: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96s...er_Reichskreis






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Your map: it reports in small M. of Saluzzo
My map: it clearly depicts Marquisate of Saluzzo
German name: Markgraf von Saluzzo
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Indipendent feud from France since 1142 with Manfred. Despite its small size and overhelming neighbours like Savoy and France he could keep itself independent while being "integrated" alternatively in them. From 1485 to 1490 is part of France. Savoy tried to siege her three times. Last into 1487. Savoy occupied Saluzzo but death of Savoy King allowed Saluzzo to go back into 1490 to France. Indipendent from 1490 until 1548 then to Savoy in 1601.
From 1490 to 1548 it was allied of France and thus the game should consider it part of France Kingdom, not an indipendent faction


Terrains, rivers, mountains: http://www.gruppostoricodelsaluzzese...-Bussoleno.htm (you can see the marquisate denoted as MARQ. DE SALUSSES left to the vertical text of PIEMONT, right of Vicariate of Barcelonete)
Regents: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markgrafschaft_Saluzzo
Flag: http://comunesal2.edisoft.net/conten...ma-e-gonfalone
Map: http://www.charemoula.it/img/CartinaMarchesato.jpg and
https://www.google.com/search?q=marc...zo%3B512%3B505


The two maps decided NOT to report same towns so we should go deeper investigating which are worthy to appear or not.
According to Wikipaedia here were significant castles and towns, since I couldn't find a map showing them I used modern google maps to locate them so you know where to look for them: http://www38.zippyshare.com/v/87512445/file.html Carmagnola is where they coined money so it's should be an important town maybe they conquered later and should be represented; Racconigi, Manta, Revello, Rifredo were castles.
Googlemap: https://maps.google.it/maps?q=carmag...+Piemonte&z=10


Units: http://www.gruppostoricodelsaluzzese...in-Saluzzo.htm (cavalry and infantry) few units from France as you can see from local reenactment)
http://www.gruppostoricodelsaluzzese...-Bussoleno.htm
http://www.gruppostoricodelsaluzzese...an-Maestro.htm


Of course this town as well as Trent should not allowed to grow too much in size as well as all other minor towns.




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Your map: M. of Monferrat
My map: Marquisate of Monferrato
German name: Marquis von Monferrato
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Your map here is better since it shows a land link between north and south that is absent into mine.
You can better see it here: http://digilander.libero.it/marchesi...o/image001.gif
This Marquisate born from real family of Holy Roman Empire, Dynasty starts with Wilhelm I son of Othon I starting in 1111 with prince Ranier. Formally started as part of the Holy Roman Empire trying often to stay independent. Expanded at its best with Wilhelm VII (1253-1296) getting Milan and Pavia. This was Aleramic dynasty. In 1306 sister of last heir to throne who died without sons, married the Byzantine Emperor Andronic II Paleologus (yeeeeh incredible) with their second son Theodor becoming marquis of Monferrat. That started the Paleologus dynasty lasted till 1533!!! So Marquisate of Monferrat can be considered FORMALLY part of the "Byzantine empire". That of course doesn't mean we now have to see Varangians guards here..it would be a great mistake. It was a local entity with noble family coming from a dying empire. It was better considered a Holy Roman Empire feud rather than a byzantine enclave.
Capital was Casale Monferrato town from 1435 till 1533. Other important towns: Chivasso (being capital before) and Mantua (capital from 1536).
Fought against all neighbours. Savoy in 1435 captured its old capital Chivasso.
Other towns conquered from Monferrato were: Acqui(1345) , Alba(1369) and Casale Monferrato then being capital.
Being struggled between Mantua, Savoy but still be considered a feud from Holy Roman Empire.
Flag: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Monferrato.gif
Maps of important town: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9n9JO_cSl-...Monferrato.jpg
Old map division: http://www.iisl.genova.it/eventi/images/teodoro1bis.jpg
Units: crossbows
http://www.casalenews.it/notizia/cul...7c86801b6fb4c6

Regents (also Saluzzo here) : http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONF...,%20SAVONA.htm


As for maps there is a difficult here: main source: http://www.marchesimonferrato.com/we...AAE5A845A}&A=0
From here I got such maps that may help for Saluzzo, Asti, Monferrato:
1419 AD first: http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/55440639/file.html
1419 AD second: http://www73.zippyshare.com/v/84550977/file.html
1450 AD : http://www62.zippyshare.com/v/7789071/file.html
1500 AD: http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/94392255/file.html
For an exact map of Monferrato we should move in between from all of them according to textual history of towns inside them.
Reason for difficulty in maps is that period was full of wars and Monferrato struggled for independence under pression of Savoy and Mailand




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Your map: Asti
Mymap: County of Asti
German name: Landkreis von Asti
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Born into 1095 as free republic from Holy Roman Empire dynasty. In 1342 the republic decided to go under vassalage of Mailand following her fate.
In 1422 Marquisate of Monferrato tried the annexion taking the chance for Mailand being involved into war against Venice but failed. Dynastic plots put then the county under control of France thus becoming an outpost for France interests into Italy. From 1465 Asti is under direct France control and can be considered a France town. Charles VIII went into Asti in 1494, wanting to fight against Naples Kingdom but got involved into war against italian state worried about France ingerence. Things gone wrong and Mailand togheter with Monferrato Marquisate got the town under their control.
Period was full of victories and defeat never being Asti lord of its fate.
Put it as a France outpost and that's all.
Wow, look at here, I found an enlarged map of previous Saluzzo:


http://www.centrostudiventimigliani....ntimiglia1.jpg
Units: http://www.lanuovaprovincia.it/galle...gallery/150/1/ http://213.215.254.202/media/2012/09/5647_16.jpg
Regents: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conti_d...assomedievale)




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Your map: shows Fivizzano as part of duchy of Modena
My map: shows it as independent region
German name: Hauptmannschaft von Fivizzano
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Your map fails again. From history we learn Fivizzano was a popular homeland for many Florence's Captains. That meeaning it's a florentinian town. That sounds really funny since your map shows it as a town from Modena. Wikipaedia says it was controlled for early centuries from Malaspina family, coming from Langobard Duchy of Lunigiana formally vassal of Holy Roman Empire. In 1430 was occupied by Mailand troops. That until 1477 when it went under Florence control. Only short change of owner was just in 1494 when it was conquered by the French king Charles VIII (yes the same that moved his troopos to Asti outpost) using for the first time cannon artillery. That was however just a passage, nothing stable.
It's INCREDIBLE to learn that Fivizzano was in the hand of Modena ONLY starting from 1847 (400 years later) after the Wien Congress where the Great duchy of Toscany gave it to Francesco V duke of Modena. From there it changes owner between Modena and Florence being Modena the last to own it till the rise of Italy. That should decrease trustability of your map. Also mine map fails when coloring it different from Florence. I couldn't find anything different owner from 1477 than Florence that let us think it could be an indipendent faction. What's more history says Fivizzano volountarily decided to go under vassalage of Florence and under that control it prosperated.
There is NO EVIDENCE against this. In game terms Fivizzano DEFINITIVELY becomes a town (castle) from Florence. Let's hope Lucca's history could clear any doubt.
Town had walls built into 1478. I could find reason for "capitanate" name in some local history. I have read that there were some militia bands who served with valor Florence army giving lot of good Captains. Maybe it's here the reason for Capitanate title to the town.
Flag: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fi...-Gonfalone.png http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fivizzano-Stemma.png
Units: archers: http://www.comune.fivizzano.ms.it/in...&mode=galleria
cavalry: http://www.comune.fivizzano.ms.it/in...&mode=galleria
heavy infantry: http://www.comune.fivizzano.ms.it/in...&mode=galleria




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Your map: shows name of Lucca inside an independent faction
My map: do the same
German name: Republik von Lucca
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Lucca deserves to be a faction as it was independent for large part of its history except for some periods under Florence and Pisa.
WOOOOW I found a new map CONFIRMING mine for its most...look it here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._1494_topo.svg
As you can see it confirms distinction of Tyrol as formally self-controlled region, with distinction of Trent municipality.
It details also Duchy of Salisburg and Duchy of Bavary more than Tyrol and Archi Duchy of Austria. Further investigating here needed!
It confirms Saluzzo, Lucca, Monferrato but forgets about Fivizzano and Asti. Also forgets about Ragusa Republik (we will see later)
Interesting that it doesn't forget Pontecorvo together with as Papal feud inside Neaples Kingdom.
It seems Lucca started to be an indipendent municipality with alternate phases maiden by victories and defeats against Florence from 1115 till 1369 when Holy Roman Empire Charles IV guaranteed freedom for the town but again Florence tried more and more to conquer her.
In 1438 part of Lucca surroundings were invaded by Modena, Genua and Florentia but town kept independent helped by Mailand.
From 1454 Lucca entered an alliance after Lodi's peace together with Florence, Venice etc. that will give peace to the town keeping her indipendent for sure till 1700.
Towns: Camajore, Borgo a Mozzano, Barga, Pietrasanta, Viareggio
Barga is a castle. In 1530 it resists to an attack from internal faction so it has been considered still a land of Lucca.
Pietrasanta was to Florentia but in 1494 it was taken from Carlo VIII (France) who gave it back for money to Lucca. Pietrasanta was given back to Florence in 1513 on order of Pope Leone X. So it can be given to Lucca in 1494. Pietrasanta is mentioned into your map as you can see into the second box. It was near Motrone but Motrone, being first access of Lucca to the sea commerce (via fluvial) then got in decadend before 1494 and Lucca replaced it with Viareggio.
Camaiore was a town of Florence until 1470. Then BACK to Lucca till 1534
Viareggio was the Lucca port after Motrone was given away to Florence in 1513 under order of Pope Leone X
"Borgo a Mozzano" (this was the complete name) has not to tell anything into history but was part of Lucca republik. According to map it can be considered a small town.
Pescia was very contended between Florence and Lucca but at this age is surely a Florence town. Mulberry and worm silk as resources.
The only available map resuming all towns is this: http://www.tuttitemi.altervista.org/...ni/toscana.gif but it's from 1500 to 1600 period. Unfortunately there is not a reference for a year. So I had to inspect history of each single town to understand if they belonged or not to Lucca. Use this map as for drawing roads and towns into campaign map and use above description to learn which town include into Siena Republik.
Units: http://www.contadolucchese.it/pagina...Gazzarra_7.JPG
http://www.contadolucchese.it/pagina...Gazzarra_6.JPG
http://www.contadolucchese.it/pagina...Gazzarra_3.JPG
crossbowman: http://www.contadolucchese.it/pagina...a/capitano.jpg
http://www.contadolucchese.it/pagina...a/Teaniinc.jpg
Various: http://www.compagniabalestrierilucca.it/immagini.php
1513: http://www.versiliamedicea.com/event...vento=E0000038 (Pietrasanta back to Florence)


Lucca had no military tradition except MAYBE for some crossbowmen. Her history explains she could survive (no military expansion except in the past for Garfagnana) THANKS to lot of money (very rich commerce due to drapery commerce..put lot of such resources inside her) and external help. So they can't produce more than militians (lancers) and crossbowmen. Also merceneries were not so many. Please reflect this into army roster for this country.
So treasury and commerce should be very high here despite the small size. Think to this as one of very challenging faction for the mod.




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Your map: R. of San Marino
My map: clearly indicated
Third map: absent
German name: Republik von San Marino
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Both maps represents it as a republic. Wikipaedia reveils it has been included into UNESCO as world heritage site since it is one of the few that could stay independent continuosly since the middle ages. It's worthy a town! It existed since 301 AD, born as a small mountain (Titan mons) community founded by a farmer called Marino, elected saint after his death. In 1463 Pope Pio II donated to San Marino towns of Fiorentino, Montegiardino and Serravalle and so it kept itself till then except for 10 months in 1503 after occupation of Cesare Borgia in the name of Pope Alexander VI.
San Marino is a land of 9 castles: San Marino, Acquaviva, BorgoMaggiore, Chiesanuova, Domagnano, Faetano, Fiorentino, MonteGiardino, Serravalle.
Look at the map here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._MARINO-en.png
Castles: http://www.sanmarinostate.com/castel...pagenerale.jpg
Roads: http://www.sanmarino-info.com/images/san_marino.jpg
Rivers: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...no_CIA_map.gif
There was NOT a real army here since it never fought significant battles. It's a faction with militia only. No expansion politics. If not a faction at least a rebel system of castles even if...most may find it quite exciting to try. Again no unit roster no mercenaries, small treasury.
Flag: http://www.guidasanmarino.it/foto/sa...san-marino.jpg
http://numistoria.altervista.org/blo...san_marino.jpg


If you ever decide to put this towns remember they are on mountains

[Aneirin]

Wow, that's quite a lot of stuff
I'll read it tomorrow

Cheers

[Wallachian]

Faraxius congratulations on some fantastic information!+rep

[Faraxius]

Thank you guys for appreciating.

Moving on

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COMPARISONS STARTING FROM THE CENTER
Your map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4_shepherd.jpg
My map: http://www2.zippyshare.com/i/3507467...20factions.bmp
Third map: (found later): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._1494_topo.svg

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Your map: bad fail
My map: Republik of Ragusa
German name: bad bad fail
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Another big surprise here. It's incredible how superficially your map forgets about outside of "italian" borders most for ignoring things rather than I guess for a design choice. Ragusa, owned by Venice got indipendence starting from 1358 when Venice lost a war against Hungary wasting many of Dalmatian possessions. At that age, taking advantage of Venice defeat, Ragusa offered to become a vassal from Hungary thus getting rid of Venetian ownership. Hungary accepted granting them political autonomy in exchange for an annual tribute and provision of assistance from Ragusa fleet. This republik buitl castles and fortifications and grow strong and powerful thanks to commerce to the east being place of business of various metals (silver, copper, lead), salt, spices and cinnabar.
Republik prosperated and when Hungary was defeated with Mohacs battle (1526) from Ottmans, Ragusa changed side and came under the formal supremacy of the Ottoman Sultan, undertaking to pay him an annual tribute symbolic: a clever move that allowed her to maintain her independence that lasted till 1798.
Still look at Ragusa in 1808: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ragusa-IT.png
Here you can have a PERFECT map of land surroundings in 1616: http://db.nsk.hr/HeritageDetails.aspx?id=968
You can zoom and move around to have PERFECT idea of towns, geography, islands significative for your campaign map.
Here you can find WHATEVER MAP YOU WISH ABOUT DALMATIAN WITH PERFECT ZOOM: http://db.nsk.hr/HeritageDetails.aspx?id=842
Clearly it's worth a faction!
In game terms
Ragusa should be given a castle and very advanced port facilites and a good starting fleet. Good economic structures and medic also being first town introducing pharmacy (put there an hospital). Also being known as defensor of christianity so don't miss churches.
As for units give them as usual Militia only but differently from other minor countries some limited mercenaries could be available either from Venetians mercenary units as well as Hungarian and Ottomans only.
It should be submitted a tribute to Hungary lasting till 1526.
Diplomacy: at war with Venice, allied with Republic of Ancora (see further for this new faction) and Hungary.
Town representation: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vistaderagusa1667.jpg
Commercial trade routes: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Es..._di_Ragusa.png (for sure put to Ancona and Bari)
Internal town commerce you may find this useful: Ragusa care Balkan hinterland metals and minerals (including cinnabar), leather, wool; from Puglia and Sicily salt and wheat; from the Levant spices of all kinds. Through Ancona (oil, wine, wheat, paper) and artifacts Florentine and Flemish, especially fine clothes.
Flag: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co..._of_Ragusa.svg
http://bs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datotek..._grb_grada.svg
Main source in German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republik_Ragusa
Important Towns:

Stagno (commercing salt, given a castle) German source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ston

Tribigna-Trebinje-Terbunia-Tribunia-Tarvunia: inside Republik of Ragusa in main map BUT historical fonts are sure: in Ottmans hands since 1482. Turks built a lot there so it can not be considered (despite the map) a Ragusa town http://www.trebinje.info/index.php?o...=757&Itemid=95 In game terms put this town under Ottmans hands and indicate it as needed to achieve victory for this faction
Being part of Republik of Ragusa maybe later: http://books.google.it/books?id=bplA...Ragusa&f=false (reported here as Tribigna, like what we see into map)

Other staats could be represented according to map http://db.nsk.hr/HeritageDetails.aspx?id=968
and such document: http://books.google.it/books?id=bplA...Ragusa&f=false
Granosa or Gravosa, now a quarter of Ragusa but here a different town like it says here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gru%C5%BE
Map for Gravosa: http://www.discusmedia.com/pictures/...m/0024689m.jpg

Ragusa vecchia: an earthquake destroying old Ragusa then be rebuilt. Now town is known as Cavtat
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavtat
You can find into map so there is a chance for her.

Molonta, Malanto, Molunat can not found too much. Please read here: http://books.google.it/books?id=PKIA...ragusa&f=false
I only found it's a small village now with origins from Greek (molos -> port) that was a town under Republik of Ragusa with town walls.

Here I found confirmation about toponomastic http://www.zvab.com/buch-suchen/tite...ublique-ragusa
of all the towns I am talking about: Ragusa, Regusi Vechio (alt Raguse), S. Croix (Santa Croce), Stagno, Vesichio (or Besichio), Narenca, Granosa (or Gravosa), Tribigna (or Tavurnia, Trebinje, Tribunia etc.), Malanto (Molonta, Molunat)
I COULD FIND ALMOST NOTHING on the net about them. So they probably lost importance with the end of this republic.
Above all only Stagno, Gravosa, Ragusa vecchia, Tribigna, seem worthy to be given a town.

Last word about Župa dubrovačka (dubrovačka should be adjective for her being into Dubrovnik - Ragusa sector) that you can call with Dubac. Small village but lot of detailed history here: http://www.dubrovnik-riviera.hr/c/44...Croatia.wshtml
History tells some valuable informations like:
- It became an important land based transit route between Dubrovnik and the interior. The mighty Republic of Ragusa set up commercial connections with the hinterland where they sold salt, fish, spices, jewellery, textiles, weapons and purchased minerals, wax and wood.
- This “Ragusa (Dubrovnik) road” was very important for Dubrovnik because the progress of the city depended on it directly since it was how wealth was transported to the city. Nevertheless, this road also put the freedom of Dubrovnik at risk, since enemies were very easily able to reach the town walls on it, and therefore it was carefully guarded. The government of Dubrovnik built the fortress of Tomba on the site of what is today Brgat Gornji, and built houses for the peasant-border guards who carefully ensured that no unwanted people travelled on this road- During this period, the people of Župa mainly engaged in agriculture, but they were not cultivating their own land but that of the nobility. They primarily grew vines.
- Much attention was paid to Župa, which was very important to Dubrovnik both commercially and strategically
You can find description about its location here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDupa_dubrova%C4%8Dka
UNFORTUNATELY I couldn't find any mention about this town into map we are given about the area









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Your map: bad fail
My map: bad fail
Third map: bad fail
German name: Republik von Ankona
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In your map as well as in third, Ancona is denoted as a town at all effects belonging to Papal States. It's wrong unless you consider it a bit superficially. From 1443 Pope Eugene IV officially declared it was a free Republik. As a faction it should be called Republik of Ancona.
It then underwent direct Papal control in 1532. Pope Clement VII built in the surroundings of Ancona the fortifications of the Citadel with five bastions, under the pretext, which proved false, of an imminent invasion of the city by the Turks; on the contrary the new fortifications were used by the Papal troops as a Trojan horse. On September 19, 1532 was in fact occupied Ancona and, because of the guns of the Citadel focused on the city and its main access roads , Ancona had to give up independence without a chance to react; with dirty trick Pope Clement VII put an end to Ancona's freedom , thus placing the city under the direct rule of the Papal States. When some young nobles of the city tried to organize the restoration of lost liberty, they were discovered, imprisoned, tortured and killed; their decapitated bodies were thrown into the Piazza Grande as a warning to all citizens.
Here is a TREMENDOUS GORGEOUS MAP of Ancona and its surroundings with Republik land that is PERFECT for designing the new faction: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_castelli.png
Here you can see castels, borders, rivers, landscape and roads. In Orange the Citadel that costed its freedom.
Flags: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St..._di_Ancona.png
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ancona-Bandiera.png
Commerce: trade routs: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...anconitani.png
From the Levant (East) arrived at the port of Ancona spices and medicines of all kinds, dyes, perfumes, rubber cement, silk, cotton, sugar cane, alum; timber instead came from Dalmatia (from Mark), salt (from Pago), metals (Rijeka), leather, wax, honey, (especially from Ragusa, but also from Zadar, Trogir and Sibenik). These products were then exported by land, direct to Florence, Lombardy and Flanders.
Diplomacy: allied with Papal States and Republik of Ragusa. At war against Venice, Mailand and Ottmans
Religious people so don't forget Church.
Units: Ancona was a minor of the popular Town of the Sea, Town-State that ruled commerce by sea. So expect lot of vanal facilities, for commerce and military. So many attempts from Venice to submit this town comes from need to decrease their military and commercial influence along the sea. After the Pope conquered it became base for Pope ships, so provide this town as well as Ragusa with good warships. Archers: http://www.gruppostoricocorinaldo.it..._v-300x400.jpg
Since it was originally a Bizantine territory maybe some mercenaries from Byzantine available..but minor ones.
As well as local militia.
Being a republic, thus ruled by an oligarchy, you won't find a list of regents. As for people names I have to investigate further



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Your map: bad fail, only reporting geographical location but wrongly assegning it to Neaples kingdom
My map: great! locates the feud giving its name
Third map: locates the feud without putting a name..we know the name from second map
German name: feud of Pontecorvo
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Not a indipendent faction but a Papal enclave into Neaples kingdom (like Beneventum) from 1463 to 1860. It volountarily vassaled to Papal states
In game terms put it as a very small region with a few Papal militia. There was a station of Malta's Knights, so give a couple of uunits of that here. Towers and churches as well as good commerce.


German Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontecorvo
Italian: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontecorvo
Detailed source: http://www.comune.pontecorvo.gov.it/...-cenni-storici


























NOTE: along ALL of my posts here I referred to Milan faction with the appelative of Mailand to be sure you can recognize it but Mailand is only its German name



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EXTRA RESOURCES: here it is an EXCELLENT FULL EXHAUSTIVE source for regnant names you can use ofr name factions of Asti, Genua, Lucca, Mantua, Milan(Mailand), Modena, Monferrato, Pisa, Savoy, Siena, Savoy, Florence, Venice
YOu can find all names here: http://my.raex.com/~obsidian/noritaly.html#Lucca

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To be continued...

[Aneirin]

Thank's for your awesome work!

[Faraxius]

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COMPARISONS STARTING FROM THE CENTER AND SOUTH
Your map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4_shepherd.jpg
My map: http://www2.zippyshare.com/i/3507467...20factions.bmp
Third map: (found later): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._1494_topo.svg


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**************************************
Your map: doesn't show the area
My map: Regno di Sardegna
German name: Königreich Sardinien
Italian name: Regno di Sardegna
Historical name at that age: Regnum Sardiniae
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After a long struggle for supremacy on the island between the Kingdom of Aragon (coming from Spain) and the local autonomous state entities ("Giudicati", or governed by "Giudices" - Judges)( a result of the administrative division of the island operated by the Byzantines who later abandoned the island alone)(look here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Giudicati_sardi_1.svg ), finally the Aragonese complete conquest of the island in 1448 (that sometimes implied naval battles among Aragons and Piza or Genua) except from islands of Maddalena's archipelago.
Formally at this age Sardinia is Aragonian province thus belonging to Aragona's Kingdom. This was NOT "Spain" as we today refer to it!
At that time Spain was not "one nation" but one land with 4 different kingdoms: Navarra, Castilla, Aragon and Portugal. (Granada sultanate was conquered into 1492)

In 1475, thanks to their marriage being officialized by the agreement of Segovia, it was formally decided that Isabella (queen of Castilla) could exercise his royal power in Castile but not in Aragon while her husband Ferdinand (king of Aragon), in addition to exercising the royal power in Aragon, in Castile could administer justice jointly or separately from Isabel; the royal ordinances were signed by both; the coins bore the effigies of both and royal seals bearing the arms of the two houses; Finally, Ferdinand was in charge of foreign policy.

At this time then Kingdom of Sardinia is NOT an independent kingdom but is a full part of the Kingdom of Aragona & Castille (not Spain).
In game terms since foreign affairs of the united kingdom of Castille and Aragon was in charge of Ferdinand and according to this source: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unificazione_della_Spagna (sorry it's in italian) it's only with Charles I of Spain (better known as Charles V of Habsburg) in 1516 that we can talk of "Spain" as one faction. Till then Aragona and Castille considered two countries. I can't remember the name of the mod (maybe Bellum Crucis??? ) but I could find somewhere a faction with both names...to be correct you should do the same here. Give Sardinia to Aragona & Castilla faction.
Exact Flag: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...1492-1504).svg that is different from what we are usual in most cases: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ro..._(Crowned).svg
German source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krone_Aragon

Diplomacy: Aragon is not in good shape with Genua and Piza (that is Florence at this time).
As for units we can have an idea from San Luri and Macomer battles where Aragona army was formed by lancers, and knights, halberds and cannons.
The island suffered lot from pillage, great pestilence, rebels, and low agriculture so don't put there too much populated towns.
Resources: wheat barley wine honey wax, as for mines the main should be silver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ng_in_Sardinia

As for towns you should necessariliy put those towns which were the most important of the Giudicates like Oristano, Sassari, Porto Torres, Cagliari, Olbia.
Here you can find a map of 1550 and I expect there won't be relevant changes since 1494
http://web.tiscalinet.it/alterstampe...e/smunster.jpg
There are few interesting new towns and forts that can be taken from here.

With aragonian domination some town are called "regal towns" meaning they were governed by direct Aragon king authority. They were: Cagliari, Sassari, Oristano, Bosa, Alghero, Sassari, Castel Aragonese, Iglesias. Let's find something about them:

Castrum Aragonensis in the map is today known as Castelsardo that was called Castello Aragonese under aragonian domination. Small town better known for with impregnable fortress castle

Alghero (Alguer in Aragonian language) was conquered by Aragonians in 1353. Interesting is that the Catalans (a part of Aragonian kingdom) pulled away all local inhabitants replacing them with people from motherland thus making Alguer a "real" spanish town into Sardinia land. Consider this as a fortified town http://www.pianetaalghero.com/alghero/torri-alghero/ ..it's hard to think to wooden walls here.

Bosa, florid town under Aragon rule. There was a castle and port facilities.

Oristano and Sassari there is not too much to say about these towns along spanish domination while before being very important. Both with stone walls and churches.

Iglesias: first city of the newborn Aragonian dominion to obtain recognition of a royal city in June 1327. Throughout the period of such domination, which lasted about four centuries, was one of the most important and populous cities of the kingdom. This period was also the restructuring of almost all the places of worship citizens and defensive fortifications. Iglesias is spanish name for churches so influence was very strong.




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Your map: wrongly put them together: Regno delle due Sicilie (Kingdom of the two sicilies)
My map: correctly differentiate between Regno di Napoli and Regno di Sicilia (and from Kingdom of Sardinia)
Third map: like my map
German name: Königreich Sizilien und Königreich Neapel
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Another big mistake in your map here. This mistake as everyone else, however, I must say, is PARTIALLY admitted by the author of the map. Indeed if you read it right on the above corner next to the date 1494, you can read the mention "about" which justifies errors. Authors says this map is NOT 1494 but is AROUND that year..so what you see there is NOT EXACTLY the year 1494 but it is close. How much "close" unfortunately we are not told...we don't know if we are before or after that date. The error is, therefore, consider your map as a map of 1494. Better to use mine. Of course, please please please...do not consider these observations as a criticism of you and your wonderful work but only my wish to help you do some better historical design in the next version!

As about the Kingdown of the two Sicilies I got an answer here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_d...her_von_Neapel

Alfonso I (this was his name as King of Sicilia, his name as king of Aragon was Alfonso V and as King of Castille Alfonso Tristamara)(according to the kingdom he got by conquer or inheritage he changed his name in respect of conquered regents' history)(he can be considered a king of Castille) was adopted by Johanna II (queen of Kingdom of Naples), providing the legal basis for his claim against the continental south against Renato I (King of the Kingdom of Neaples after death of Johanna II). With the strict interpretation of this Johanna II Adoption Alfonso, already King of Sicily, militarily conquered the Kingdom of Naples assuming the title of Rex Utriusque Siciliae and also unifying formally the two kingdoms.


However Alfonso at his death (1458) left Naples to his natural son Ferdinand (known as Ferrante I)(or Ferdinand I of Neaples) while the crown of Aragon and Sicily went to his brother John II of Aragon, known as the right, thus separating the two kingdoms again.

From 1458 then Neaples and Sicily are "different" kingdoms despite their regents were relatives.
But they became again the same kingdom in 1504 by Ferdinand II son of John II of Aragon.
This intricated dynastc system caused the general misunderstanding... as you can see 1504 is very close to 1494 that explain the "about" correction in your map.
Detailed explanation about this here: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re_di_Sicilia together with http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovrani...egno_di_Napoli

So

Neaple kingdom: Ferdinand I of Neaples -> Alphonse II of Neaples -> Ferdinand II of Neaples -> Friedrich I of Neaples -> WAR in 1504 and Kingdom of Neaples conquered by Ferdinand II of Aragon (thus forming as told before, the Kingdom of the two Sicilies).

Siciliy Kingdom: John II of Aragon -> Ferdinand II of Aragon

Sardinia Kingdom: Ferdinand II of Aragon

According to this: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re_di_Sardegna I had the STRONG impression that in 1494 Sicily and Sardinia were BOTH two distinct kingdoms with the SAME king.
Both maps, mine and third maps SHOW Sardinia and Sicily in different colors. While I got certainty about separation Neaples-Sicily I have no certainty about separation of Sardinia and Sicily. Apparently they got the same King but why are they shown as DIFFERENT kingdoms??
No answer till now...needed further investigation!

[Faraxius]

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COMPARISONS STARTING FOR OTHER COUNTRIES
Your map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4_shepherd.jpg
My map: http://www2.zippyshare.com/i/3507467...20factions.bmp
Third map: (found later): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._1494_topo.svg


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Your map: doesn't show the area
My map: doesn't show the area
Third map: show the area without reporting any country
Italian name: Califfato Hafside or Dominio degli Hafsidi
English name: Hafsid dynasty
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References: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifriqiya and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafsid_dynasty
This is a totally new faction for sure. They have NOT to be confused with Ottman's Turks as such faction conquered the area only in 1534 holding it only for one year. Then alterned Spanish and Ottmans several times.
In 1494 Hafsid was an independent faction ruled by caliph Abu Yahya Zakariya (1490–1494) first and Muhammad IV (1494–1526) later.
Flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tunis_hafsid_flag.png and http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ha..._-_Tunisia.svg
http://markodehaeck.free.fr/FILLES/DZ/DZ%201229.png
Map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Hafsid1400.png
http://www.afrique-atlas.org/images/cartes/1350.png
Terrain: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...opographic.png
Commerce: salt in the south, caravan traffic across the Sahara and Egypt, both in maritime trade with the same Venice and Aragon
Tunisia under the early Hafsids, as well as the entire Maghrib, enjoyed a general prosperity due to the rise of the Saharan-Sudanese trade. Perhaps more important was the increase in Mediterranean commerce including trade with Europeans
The principal maritime customs ports were then: Tunis, Sfax, Mahdia, Jerba, and Gabés (all in Tunisia); Oran, Bougie (Béjaïa), and Bône (Annaba) (in Algeria); and Tripoli (in Libya).
Tunis exported grain, dates, olive oil, wool and leather, wax, coral, salt fish, cloth, carpets, arms, and also perhaps black slaves. Imports included cabinet work, arms, hunting birds, wine, perfumes, spices, medical plants, hemp, linen, silk, cotton, many types of cloth, glass ware, metals, hardware, and jewels.
More info here: http://books.google.it/books?id=5Rfm...ynasty&f=false

Diplomacy: at war against Ottmans (being this faction to be destroyed a victory objective for Ottmans), sometimes at war against Aragon (that is Sicily and Sardegna in game) and Venice.
Units: Hafsids can be considered an indipendent dynasty coming from the end of ALMOHADI calipphate. There is plenty of Almohadi factions in so many Med2 mods you can choose lot of them to import units, faction names and so on.
Something here: http://encyclopedieberbere.revues.org/1639 where we have confirmation about Almohade military inheritage. They also had mercenaries from christian and such was the better equipped units. So make mercenaries available. Archers and crossbowmen only from christianity. Give them a fleet with some war galee.


This is at all effects a new faction.

Towns: Tunis (capital), Sfax, Mahdia (port facilities, robust walls) Djerba (put a small island in front of it), Gabes, Tripolis, Sūsa (Arabic) (know as Sousse in French domination), Biskra, Constantine (Qusantine in arabs), Béjaïa (last two being the most important towns of the west) http://media-3.web.britannica.com/eb...4-3CCA3F7C.jpg

Regents: http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRe...overnmentData=
This is useful to address Hafsid caliphs as well as Ottmans ones.




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Your map: doesn't show the area
My map: doesn't show the area
Third map: show the area without reporting any country
Italian name: Stati barbareschi
English name: Barbary Coast
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This could become either: a new faction appearing as a trigger in middle XVI century, a rebel flleet spawned in the same period or Ottman fleet doing the same.
I think best solution would not be a new faction but rather a mix between new rebels units and new Ottman's reinforcements. ALL in the form of naval units.
Despite along the Ottman's expansion in north afrika being always contrasted by spaniards, local entities formed in the north afrikan costs formally depending on Ottmans but independent in concept, formed real states based on piratery along mediterranean sea.
Main estates were Tripolis, Tunis and Algeri. They had naval bases and armies that could control also land in the surroundings of their capital cities. However designing them as faction in Medieval 2 then requires lot of uncomfortable stuffs that's why it would be better to "simulate" those elements by an increased rebel activity along sea. Since most of pirate forces were based on their leaders and depending on alternate support they got from Ottmans best way would be a mix of rebel fleets together with Ottmans' fleets.

Currently your mod seems (at least to me that I had a partial insight to the game from this point of view, maybe I am wrong) to lack about a "specific" rebel naval activity out of "standard"...I mean, rebel fleets appears but they are "regular"...what should be introduced is different, that is a BIG fleet of rebels led by a specific historical leader like Baba Aruj or Pirate Redbird (being a christian renegade) with high naval command and specific image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ar...barbarossa.jpg He lived from 1474 to 1518 thus being a popular protagonist of this age. I know Med2 allows to dispatch units appearing on campaign map based on triggered events. That would be the chance for this pirate like others. Mediterranean see was "infested" by such kind of pirates till modern era and their rubbery was so florid they could almost form "real estates". They deserve to be introduced in this game. To simulate they were both independent as well as vassals of Ottmans, best thing would be select a list of pirate leaders and let them appear with a signficant rebel fleet according to their real life history
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbareskenstaaten


Here a list of popular pirates by alphabetical order: http://www.privateerdragons.com/pirates_famous9.html#W

We found also then: Yusuf Reis (Raïs) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aruj and his young brother later called Hayreddin or Kheir ed-Din http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa and many others should be given a spwan flleet at their best age of corsary either on rebel or Ottmans' side according to their role and Med2TW modding possibilities.


Summarizing:

Barbery states:

• repubblica corsara di Rabat
• repubblica corsara di Salé
• bey di Misurata
• bey di Derna
• bey di Bengasi (Barqa)
• bey di Tripoli
• bey di Tunisi
• bey di Algeri
• bey di Mascara
• bey di Costantina
• bey di Medea e Titteria
• bey di Tlemcen

Pirates list

• Kemal Reis (c. 1451–1511)
• Gedik Ahmed Pasha (died 1482)
• Sinan Reis (died 1546)
• Piri Reis (died 1554 or 1555)
• Turgut Reis (1485–1565)
• Sinan Pasha (died 1553)
• Kurtoğlu Muslihiddin Reis (1487–c. 1535)
• Kurtoğlu Hızır Reis
• Salih Reis (c. 1488–1568)
• Seydi Ali Reis (1498–1563)
• Piyale Pasha (c. 1515–1578)
• Raïs Hamidou (1773–1815)
• Uluç Ali Reis (1519–1587)
• Ali Bitchin (c. 1560–1645)
• Simon de Danser or Simon Reis (c. 1579–c. 1611)
• Salomo de Veenboer or Sulayman Reis (died 1620)
• Murat Reis the Elder (c. 1534–1638)
• Murat Reis the Younger (c. 1570–after 1641)

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Your map: show the area putting no political differences in it
My map: doesn't show the area simplifiyiong everything as part of Great duchy of Austria
Third map: differentiates Salisbury and Bavaria from Great duchy of Austria
Italian name: Ducato di Salisburgo and Ducato di Bavaria
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They were statal entities that could be mapped into Swabian League.
Since you are gonna introduce this leage I have no need to investigate further here
They are included into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_League

[Aneirin]

Again very good work, that will help me a lot to create a new and better map

[Faraxius]

So I've updated the link.
Well, the english translation is already quite finished so I don't want stop that now
Looking forward to your comparison

Hello..
so...here is what to do after I visited your main page with updated link:

1 - I deleted my med2\mods\Italian_wars folder (saving my save files before)
2 - I downloaded Italian_wars 3.3 (388MB filename: DIK 3.3.exe)
3 - I installed the game from skretch by this file
4 - I launched the game....on the loading screen unfortunately I still can see 3.2 version
5 - I loaded my old save games and game still crashed
6 - I tried to install the patch but double-clicking on file Patch DIK 3.3.1.exe 92,8KB I got an error and could not open it

That's to say something is still wrong with your links


Are you SURE SURE SURE your links really correspond to what they say?
Anyone else can please try and test them?

Where am I supposed to read 3.3 version? maybe that loading screen is not the right place where I should find 3.3. diciture...
Should I find it somewhere else?

Thanks for your support

[Aneirin]

Well, I did not change the numbers from 3.2 to 3.3 sorry..
As I said the version 3.3 is NOT save game compitable..

The download you find in the Download thread is definitly the right one
About the patch.. well some people seem to have problems to open the .exe, so I'll upload it as a .rar file

Edit: Updated the download thread

[Faraxius]

rar file was better to me, finally I could replace those two txt files.

Unfortunately the saved game still makes the game go crashed.

I suspect this may be a different kind of bug from what your hotfix is intended to patch. Reason is that if you were wrong updating game version of your main setup THEN I have probably always played with 3.3

What I am not sure is if I installed any patch or not. My memory fails here. But I have the impression I patched it some way.
In that case this is a "new" bug you should go investigating further.

I have two testing ideas for this bug. One needs your support.

First I will now restart the Papal state campaign from skretch. This time I will be sure I have patched the game before starting the grand campaign. I will take a note about current turn for old campaign crashing. Let's see if that repeats.

Secondly, may I attached here my saved file. Can you see if you can load and play a safe end of turn without crashing along your installation? that will make me sure my system is not responsible for malfunctioning.

If anyone else would give a try it would be nice.
Thank you

[Faraxius]

By the way....
maybe a silly question....
maybe the solution to the problem...

I "manually" replaced patch txt files that I found INSIDE "Italian_wars" folder...
Was I intended to replace files into Medieval 2 TW "main" folder???

That may be a "try"...right?

[Aneirin]

No it wasn't. I intended that you copy the whole files into your italian_wars folder, you added them by hand, it's just the same

Mate, as I already said you can't load your save because I make some adjustments in the campaign_script
That's why your game is crashing.

So the best way is to start a new game and we will see

[Theramines]

Are you SURE SURE SURE your links really correspond to what they say?
Anyone else can please try and test them?

I've been playing 3.3 and haven't had problems.

[Aneirin]

Which faction did you play Theramines?

[Theramines]

I've played Florence and HRE for over a hundred turns. I've also played Venice for about 50-100 turns (I gave up because I wanted to try other factions); Naples for about 40 (I gave up because I couldn't get out of debt).

I would say that I've had CTDs about every 50 turns, which is in my opinion pretty good for a mod. None of the crashes corrupted files. I was able to restart the games easily.

[Aneirin]

That's strange.. maybe the bug exists only when you are playing papal states.. I'll check the events and scripts for the pope once more

[Faraxius]

GOOD NEWS....

I have started a new Papal campaign from skretch..and right now, after a very INTENSIVE play (I love this campaign) I could reach year and pass over year 1514. The previous bugged campaign can not go beyond 1513 year. So apparently we can say a campaign after correct patching and game maybe is safe...I will go on and let you know.
I love this campaign, AI is better than ever, rebels are a real trouble and MONEY, guyssss..money is terrible but I LOVE hard times and ...this campaign pushed ALL my best skills but I am succesfull till now..I enjoyed so much diplomacy. factions really behave with a sense of alliance.
very very very challenging game.. Neapel is incredible..they have few towns but throw out armies over armies...they tried 3 times to siege my capital (Rome) but I could save it each time with full panic!

I have also started an Helvetic Confederation campaign.

Till now all works perfectly.

[Faraxius]

This would be a GREAT HOTSEAT campaign...
any hotseat veteran here?

[Aneirin]

Glad to hear that all works
Have fun!