{DIK} Discussion

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, DBW, for the explantions and the link to the movie!
I just wanted to make clear if you put two unit in one spot or not. I understand that it's "not": gunners shoot and then retreat behind the pikes. (althogh in the movie it is).

BTW - can gunners shoot over the heads of a unit in front of them, or do they need to have a clear view?
(bows and crossbows can shoot over the heads)

As you know, I share your attitude toward money - it should be scarce to make the game meaningful.

The Ultimate version is only available in English.

That's sad as I prefer the "native" names of the units. Eg.:
Unterwaldner Armbrustschützen
Luzerner Handrohrschützen
Eidgenössische Hakenbüchsenschützen
Züricher Hakenbüchsengarde
Eidgenössische Bürgerwehr
Eidgenössische Hellebardiere
Eidgenössische Pikeniere
Berner Stadtgardisten
Schwyzer Elitepikeniere
Graubündner Adelsritter
Thurgauer Berittene Armbrustschützen

[Der Böse Wolf]

Thanks, DBW, for the explantions and the link to the movie!
I just wanted to make clear if you put two unit in one spot or not. I understand that it's "not": gunners shoot and then retreat behind the pikes. (althogh in the movie it is).

BTW - can gunners shoot over the heads of a unit in front of them, or do they need to have a clear view?
(bows and crossbows can shoot over the heads)

As you know, I share your attitude toward money - it should be scarce to make the game meaningful.

That's sad as I prefer the "native" names of the units. Eg.:
Unterwaldner Armbrustschützen
Luzerner Handrohrschützen
Eidgenössische Hakenbüchsenschützen
Züricher Hakenbüchsengarde
Eidgenössische Bürgerwehr
Eidgenössische Hellebardiere
Eidgenössische Pikeniere
Berner Stadtgardisten
Schwyzer Elitepikeniere
Graubündner Adelsritter
Thurgauer Berittene Armbrustschützen

I'll do some more custom battle tests and report back regarding gunners.

From the information I read, gunners stand in front of the pikes and when then enemy advances, they retreat behind the pikes , but NOT BEHIND THE MEN holding the pikes.
Or more likely, the pikes advance and cover the shooters while holding back the enemy so the gunners get point blank shots at them.

The mod is English, but all the voice are native. However the Hungarian speak Russian and Hafsids English with a Middle Eastern accent. The other factions speak Italian, Spanish, German or French accordingly.
I also think think Swiss and German troops have German names. But I need to verify this.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'll do some more custom battle tests and report back regarding gunners.

From the information I read, gunners stand in front of the pikes and when then enemy advances, they retreat behind the pikes , but NOT BEHIND THE MEN holding the pikes.
Or more likely, the pikes advance and cover the shooters while holding back the enemy so the gunners get point blank shots at them.

It'd be nice if some old DIK players would step in and report on their experience :-)

The mod is English, but all the voice are native. However the Hungarian speak Russian and Hafsids English with a Middle Eastern accent. The other factions speak Italian, Spanish, German or French accordingly.
I also think think Swiss and German troops have German names. But I need to verify this.

Already those 4 languages are enough for an immersive game.
A warning: there's a folder GHZ in the mod - but it seems an outdated version of localization, implementing it causes a crash.
The Swiss troops did have German names in the previous version (and they're included in the Excel file), but they're not in the DIK-Ultimate. It's not so difficult to implement it (actually, I'm going to do it). However, in general I'm not so convinced by the use of place names in the units' names. Why Graubündner Adelsritter ? they're from anywhere, and Graubündner was just about joining the Confederation... It's what I'd like to ask Aneirin, if he shows up in the forum.

[Elendil 03]

Modern-day Graubünden was the most feudalised region of the Swiss alps in the late middle ages, I believe.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Modern-day Graubünden was the most feudalised region of the Swiss alps in the late middle ages, I believe.

It was so poor and sparsely populated region that nobody cared if it was joining the Confederation or not. Only in the late 15th century something moved - but from the Grizons side. IMO, even low feudalization in the other regions with more productive agriculture would provide for more noble troops. (I'm open to discussion on this, I don't have any numbers handy).

[Elendil 03]

That's probably right. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, there are no reports about Confederacy troops in the 15th and 16th century using cavalry to a significant extent. In the battle of Marignano, for example, which was one of the greatest Renaissace battles the Swiss participated in, they fielded not more than 300 cavalrymen, rather less.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yep, I agree. This shows that a limited number of such cavalry should be available to the Eidgenossen. How would they be called? I think it was a problem to Aneirin and he couldn't come up with any better solution, and he wanted to diversify names (there're already Luzerner, Berner, Zuricher), so he's chosen Graubinden.

Does anybody know how it's in the 1212 mod for the ATW-AoC engine?

[Der Böse Wolf]

As promised, I did some testing with the Pike and Shot mechanism and AI behaviour.

1- Gunners shooting with the protection of the pikes:












2- AI behaviour with the cavalry against the pikes:




After trying th charge my lines, the Ai decided to outmanoeuver my pikes and got a clean charge with the heavy cav on my arquebusiers, decimating them as they were standing behind the pikes.
One charge was enough, hence the importance of the pikes to protect the gunners.



3- AI positioning and Pike and shot formation on the battlefield:

[sullivanclan1]

Examples look nice!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks a lot, DBW!
It's really surprising that the AI is able to make such maneuvers.
A few questions:
- you put the handgunners in the place of the pikemen, or just a bit forward? (I understand: a bit forward, and when the enemy approaches, the gunners move back - it looks historical to me)
- don't you think that pinning enemy with pikes and then mixing halberdiers with your unit to get enemy killed is not very historical (and similarly: holding enemy with the pikes and shooting by gunners place inside of your pikes)?
- yep, I've seen in some mods the BAI tweaked in such a way that they always take a high ground and wait for the player to attack. It makes the battles really challenging, I recall the BAI in the RTW where you'd just wait for the enemy to attack you).
JoC

[sullivanclan1]

When will this mod be released? Just curious!

[Elendil 03]

@sullivanclan1: We all appreciate your interest in mods, but could you please take to look at the subforums before you ask superfluous questions in the discussion thread? Had you done so, you'd know that the mod is released since a whole while as well as that it's not being worked on anymore.

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hey Jurand,

well from what I read, the gunners or arquebusiers or musketeers would stand in front of the pikes (and on the flanks) and retreat to behind or between the pikes when the enemy closes in, and some can keep shooting from within the pikes.

At the same time, some pike and shot formations placed halberds in the centre of the pike formation. And when enemy pikes or infantry clashes withe pikes, the halberds approach the front lines and drop their halberds on the enemy, since the have long reach.

So mixing pikes with gunners or infantry is not historically inaccurate.

Check out this picture. You can see how the halberds are in the centre of the pikes.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yep, I see, thanks!
What do you mean by "drop their halberds on the enemy"?

[Der Böse Wolf]

I mean that the halberdiers would hit the enemy infantry with their halberds from within the safety of the pikes, using the long reach of the halberds.
They either thrust or drop (like a chopping movement) the halberds on the enemy.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hmm, the pikes are longer than the halberds, aren't they?

[Der Böse Wolf]

They are, I believe the halberdiers just hit anyone who goes past the pikes, or advance themselves towards the tips of the pikes and use their halberds to hit the pinned enemy...

[k/t]

Gunners can't shoot over the heads of your units. I've never seen that in any mod.

[Jurand of Cracow]

An interesting guide on the halberds has been just published here. I've got no idea if it applies to the DIK - it perhaps depend on how much Aenerin has modified this mod.

[Aneirin]

Pretty awesome how Der Böse Wolf gots down in action with the pikes. I have never tried such maneuvers back in the days, when I was creating DIK.
I would have never imagined after implementing the AI tweaks by Germanicu (hope that was his name), that the AI will make such maneuvers

Basically, I used several AI tweaks but all of them were implemented in the one from Germanicu.
I guess I have to take some off time this weekend to give DIK a try

As for the discussion about the naming for the Swiss, don't make a fuss about it, I just took some random names, which I thought where cool.

Best regards
Aneirin