{DIK} Discussion

[Elendil 03]

That's probably right. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, there are no reports about Confederacy troops in the 15th and 16th century using cavalry to a significant extent. In the battle of Marignano, for example, which was one of the greatest Renaissace battles the Swiss participated in, they fielded not more than 300 cavalrymen, rather less.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yep, I agree. This shows that a limited number of such cavalry should be available to the Eidgenossen. How would they be called? I think it was a problem to Aneirin and he couldn't come up with any better solution, and he wanted to diversify names (there're already Luzerner, Berner, Zuricher), so he's chosen Graubinden.

Does anybody know how it's in the 1212 mod for the ATW-AoC engine?

[Der Böse Wolf]

As promised, I did some testing with the Pike and Shot mechanism and AI behaviour.

1- Gunners shooting with the protection of the pikes:












2- AI behaviour with the cavalry against the pikes:




After trying th charge my lines, the Ai decided to outmanoeuver my pikes and got a clean charge with the heavy cav on my arquebusiers, decimating them as they were standing behind the pikes.
One charge was enough, hence the importance of the pikes to protect the gunners.



3- AI positioning and Pike and shot formation on the battlefield:

[sullivanclan1]

Examples look nice!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks a lot, DBW!
It's really surprising that the AI is able to make such maneuvers.
A few questions:
- you put the handgunners in the place of the pikemen, or just a bit forward? (I understand: a bit forward, and when the enemy approaches, the gunners move back - it looks historical to me)
- don't you think that pinning enemy with pikes and then mixing halberdiers with your unit to get enemy killed is not very historical (and similarly: holding enemy with the pikes and shooting by gunners place inside of your pikes)?
- yep, I've seen in some mods the BAI tweaked in such a way that they always take a high ground and wait for the player to attack. It makes the battles really challenging, I recall the BAI in the RTW where you'd just wait for the enemy to attack you).
JoC

[Der Böse Wolf]

Hey Jurand,

well from what I read, the gunners or arquebusiers or musketeers would stand in front of the pikes (and on the flanks) and retreat to behind or between the pikes when the enemy closes in, and some can keep shooting from within the pikes.

At the same time, some pike and shot formations placed halberds in the centre of the pike formation. And when enemy pikes or infantry clashes withe pikes, the halberds approach the front lines and drop their halberds on the enemy, since the have long reach.

So mixing pikes with gunners or infantry is not historically inaccurate.

Check out this picture. You can see how the halberds are in the centre of the pikes.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yep, I see, thanks!
What do you mean by "drop their halberds on the enemy"?

[sullivanclan1]

When will this mod be released? Just curious!

[Elendil 03]

@sullivanclan1: We all appreciate your interest in mods, but could you please take to look at the subforums before you ask superfluous questions in the discussion thread? Had you done so, you'd know that the mod is released since a whole while as well as that it's not being worked on anymore.

[Der Böse Wolf]

I mean that the halberdiers would hit the enemy infantry with their halberds from within the safety of the pikes, using the long reach of the halberds.
They either thrust or drop (like a chopping movement) the halberds on the enemy.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hmm, the pikes are longer than the halberds, aren't they?

[Der Böse Wolf]

They are, I believe the halberdiers just hit anyone who goes past the pikes, or advance themselves towards the tips of the pikes and use their halberds to hit the pinned enemy...

[k/t]

Gunners can't shoot over the heads of your units. I've never seen that in any mod.

[Jurand of Cracow]

An interesting guide on the halberds has been just published here. I've got no idea if it applies to the DIK - it perhaps depend on how much Aenerin has modified this mod.

[Der Böse Wolf]

An interesting guide on the halberds has been just published here. I've got no idea if it applies to the DIK - it perhaps depend on how much Aenerin has modified this mod.

Great guide, repped the OP.

But in DIK, this is not needed as the pikes work as intended.

Not sure about the halberds though. I didn't test it.

[Aneirin]

It's my pleasure to contribute even in such an insignificant way to the general appeal of this truly EXCELLENT mod.

And thank you and your team for this tremendous work.

Hervorragende Arbeit!

PS: it would me superb if you could fix the couple of unit cards displaying a peasant unit from Rome 1

Thank's for the praise, very appreciated!

As for the fixing of these issues I am afraid I simply don't have the time for it.
I'd really love to see the Condottiere Contract working. I imagine it to be quite cool to fight as a Bolognese Condottiere in service of a greater lord.

[Der Böse Wolf]

Thank's for the praise, very appreciated!

As for the fixing of these issues I am afraid I simply don't have the time for it.
I'd really love to see the Condottiere Contract working. I imagine it to be quite cool to fight as a Bolognese Condottiere in service of a greater lord.

Oh yes, the Condottiere Script would be tremendous.
Any plans on working on it?

[Aneirin]

Pretty awesome how Der Böse Wolf gots down in action with the pikes. I have never tried such maneuvers back in the days, when I was creating DIK.
I would have never imagined after implementing the AI tweaks by Germanicu (hope that was his name), that the AI will make such maneuvers

Basically, I used several AI tweaks but all of them were implemented in the one from Germanicu.
I guess I have to take some off time this weekend to give DIK a try

As for the discussion about the naming for the Swiss, don't make a fuss about it, I just took some random names, which I thought where cool.

Best regards
Aneirin

[Der Böse Wolf]

Pretty awesome how Der Böse Wolf gots down in action with the pikes. I have never tried such maneuvers back in the days, when I was creating DIK.
I would have never imagined after implementing the AI tweaks by Germanicu (hope that was his name), that the AI will make such maneuvers

Basically, I used several AI tweaks but all of them were implemented in the one from Germanicu.
I guess I have to take some off time this weekend to give DIK a try

As for the discussion about the naming for the Swiss, don't make a fuss about it, I just took some random names, which I thought where cool.

Best regards
Aneirin

It's my pleasure to contribute even in such an insignificant way to the general appeal of this truly EXCELLENT mod.

And thank you and your team for this tremendous work.

Hervorragende Arbeit!

PS: it would me superb if you could fix the couple of unit cards displaying a peasant unit from Rome 1

[Mausolos of Caria]

Hello Aneirin, my friend, I have come back to play DIK recently I'm currently playing as Venice and might have spent way too much money on condottiere, so my finances are deeply in the red. That seems to be the case for most factions, though, only the rebellious Peasantry and Spain are making decent money. Unfortunately, the Borgia pope died pretty quickly again, and with him the whole Papal State. This paved the way for Siena to become the dominant power of central Italy Genoa, too, fell apart and is now a part of the Duchy of Milan.
As for myself, I've found myself under constant attacks from the Ragusans. Not even two epic victories for my troops could convince them of a ceasefire which I badly need. But Venetian arms shall not be defeated. Viva San Marco!