{DIK} Discussion

[Morifea]

@Cheerful Pessimist: Glad you like it, be assumed, Ultimate will deal with some of your Points. The possibility of reforming the Black Army is in disscussion, we will see what will happen.

@+Marius+ and Wallachian: Good Points about the Rondoleros... the Transformation to Musketeers makes sense imo. I would imagine that "pure" Rondoleros were last used by Habsburg in the Wars against the Ottomans.

[Aneirin]

Great work so far, love this mod! Looking forward to when Ultimate comes out!

I had a few ideas for Hungary since you mentioned plans to overhaul the Hungarian roster in your latest video. Not sure how viable these would be but I figured I might as well throw them out there to initiate some discussion.


1. Much of Hungarian-style warfare centered around the use of cavalry, both light and heavy. Expanding the variety of cavalry; such as light, medium, and heavy cavalry as well as skirmish cavalry. This would help give cavalry a more versatile role for Hungary and make Hungary a more cavalry oriented faction, at least in the beginning. This would also be to reflect the current state of the Kingdom of Hungary; an ailing power standing against a strong rival.


2. Hungarian infantry should be good, but outclassed by the Ottomans. Infantry was seen as a secondary concern in Hungary, only Janos Hunyadi and King Matthias Corvinus gave infantry a decisive role in Hungarian strategy (this was largely due to inspiration from the Hussite Wars). When the mod begins Matthias has died and Hungary's professional army, the Black Army of Hungary, has been disbanded. Following Hungarian kings would not place the same importance on infantry as Matthias, the result was an over loss of quality in available infantry. The mod could reflect this by making Hungarian infantry (with the exception of some elite units) sub-par when compared to their Ottoman or Hapsburg rivals. This lead into my third point.


3. I think an interesting feature for Hungary (though it wouldn't be historically accurate) would be to have the option to reform the Black Army of Hungary. The Black Army was a highly successful professional army that was formed by King Matthias Corvinus and was disbanded after his death. Seeing as the Black Army was disbanded very close to when the Italian Wars began (1494) I think it would be fitting to have the option to reform them at some point. This change could be implemented similar to how the Machiavellian Reforms are for Florence. In the beginning Hungary would be a very cavalry centered faction with sub-par infantry, if you want decent infantry you will have to rely on mercenaries. Reforming the Black Army would change the Hungarian roster by giving superior infantry units and gunpowder troops; thus changing the play-style to focus more on infantry combat. Cavalry would still be important but the variety of cavalry would be reduced as the focus is now on infantry, both light and heavy as well as missile troops. To help balance this out the units should be more expensive and have a smaller recruitment pool leading to a smaller but higher quality army.


4. Aside from armies and units, some events for Hungary should correspond with events for the Ottomans. These two were bitter rivals who fought each other for over a century in a series of wars. Having their events involve one another would help flesh out this conflict between the two factions.


I hope these ideas are somewhat useful, I think I went on a bit of a ramble but it should get some discussion going. Whatever you guys choose to do, I'm sure it'll be great.


Anyways; I'm looking forward to when the final version of Ultimate comes out, you guys are doing a great job with this mod. Keep up the good work!

Many thank's for your praise, very appreciated!
Yes, we will completely overhaul their roster and army concept.
Your suggestion for relaunching the Black Army of Matthias Corvnius is quite interesting! Though we would need an extra roster for that and our sources on the Hungarian Army are already very limited. It would depend on the information we are able to gather to create such a roster or not. Yet is definitely an interesting idea, that is for sure!

As for your fourth point, have any suggestions in mind?


Note:

I'll be off on holiday for at least two weeks, probably without internet, so there won't be any new previews till mid of August!

Regards,
Aneirin

[The Despondent Mind]

Can you transfer retinue in this mod?

[dikaios]

According to wikipedia:
Infantry was less important but formed a stable basis in the integrity of an army. They were organized from mixed ethnicities and were composed of heavy infantry, shielded soldiers, light infantry and fusiliers. Their characteristics include the combination of plate and mail armour and the use of the pavises (these painted willow-wood large shields were often ornamented and covered with leather and linen). The latter served multiple purposes: to hold off enemy attacks, to cover ranged infantry shooting from behind (fusiliers engage first, the archers fire constantly), and moveable hussite-style tabor (with a restricted deployment of war wagons in number). The infantry contained Swiss pikemen, who were held in high honour by the king.
In 1481, the Black Army's infantry was described as:

"The third form of the army is the infantry, which divides into various orders: the common infantry, the armoured infantry, and the shield bearers.... The armored infantry and shield bearers cannot carry their armor and shields without pages and servants, and since it is necessary to provide them with pages, each of them requires one page per armor and shield and double bounty. Then there are the handguners... These are very practical, set behind the shield-bearers at the start of the battle, before the armies engage, and in defense. Nearly all of the infantry and arbusiers are surrounded by armored soldiers and shield-bearers, as if they were standing behind a bastion. The large shields set together in a circle present the appearance of a fort and similar to a wall in whose defense the infantry and all those among them fight almost as if from behind bastion walls or ramparts and at the given moment break out from it."
— Matthias Corvinus's letter to Gabriele Rangoni, Bishop of Eger

So I think that it should be made a spear unit with a pavise shield and black armour, because those were the marks of the Black Army

Therefore the Pavisier Spear unit of the Black Army should look like this
(they're the Hungarian Late Pavisiers from the Medieval Kingdoms 1212AD mod for Attila Total War)

Also the crossbow unit should have a more western influnced armour but obselete. Something like this I believe
and it should be called just Hungarian Crossbowmen, because as far as I know there was no such company of soldiers as Transylvanian Crossbowmen. But there was a large tribe of people who lived in medieval Transylvania who called themselves Szekely. The Szekely provided the Hungarian King with plenty of soldiers who fought from horseback with crossbow and swords (something like the mounted crossbowmen of Novgorod in Teutonic campaign).

Moreover I think that it could be a great addition to the Hungarian roster if we could add the War Wagons, which were utilised in great numbers by the Hungarians, especially by Janos Hunyadi and his son Matthias Corvinus in their wars against the Ottomans.


Lastly but not least I would like very much the usage of these flags in the hungarian army as banners 'cause they're freaking amazing!


Moreover I found this extremely awesome site about the Hungarian Army of the late 15th centrury http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywo...on.htm#Szekely

[dikaios]

Also I think the Hungarian Halberdiers should get an advancing armour which will depend on the level of their upgrade from the blscksmith, something like in vanilla. It would be really cool for this unit to begin with the basic armour/clothing (just like Polish Halberdiers in Teutonic campaign) and after a lot of blacksmith upgrades to get the black armour of the the Black Army!

ps. I found this mod for the War wagons http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...36#post9044636

ps2. Sorry for my english

[Aneirin]

Many thank's for your detailed report!

I'll add it to the basis of our research on the Hungarian roster

As for the Warwagon, we are already trying to implement them.
So far it worked, though we have some problems with the sounds of the arquebusiers, since these were modified already.
Currently their implementation is hanging in the balance because of these issues.
We'll see

PS. Expect a preview on Friday next week

[dikaios]

Nice! Would you like to help you with the descriptions of the units (especially those of the balkan factions) ?

[Aneirin]

Thank's a lot for your offer, though I am afraid we are already well supplied with texter
Nevertheless, I'll keep you in mind!

[Cheerful Pessimist]

So I've done some looking and I think I've found two mods that could be useful for you guys, both as inspiration and potentially as resources. Both of these involve Hungary and may help if you choose to implement the reformation of the Black Army.
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The first mod is the Magyar Mod, it overhauls Hungary's roster by adding new units and replacing existing ones. The unit models are excellent and many of them (notably the late period units) depict the soldiers of the Black Army. Unfortunately development for this mod has stopped so only the infantry can be utilized, the cavalry is still vanilla units with vanilla models. This could be a good resource to get inspiration for the kinds of units Hungary would have implemented and could be used as a resource if you get the mod author's permission.

LINKS:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...583-Magyar-Mod
http://www.moddb.com/mods/magyar-mod
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The second mod is Tsardoms: Total War, an ambitious mod set in the late middle ages that focuses on Italy, the Balkans, and Asia Minor. The mod is under active development so you could probably get in contact with their mod team without difficulty. They've released a "battle beta" with a few factions in it as an example of things to come and their progress so far. One of these factions is Hungary, and they use the same unit models as the Magyar Mod but they also have something new. The mod features custom cavalry units and models that simply look stunning. On top of that they feature factions such as Serbia, Bosnia, and Wallachia. Units for these factions could be implemented in-game as mercenaries, obviously with the appropriate permission. I'd suggest contacting these guys, they're doing some good work.

LINKS:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...doms-Total-War
http://www.moddb.com/mods/tsardoms-total-war
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Hope this info proves somewhat useful and at least provides some inspiration for a potential new roster. Keep up the great work guys!

[Cheerful Pessimist]

Just to add to my last post, I found a website that showcase many of the heraldic coats-of-arms for many noble houses of the period. It could prove useful for banners and shield designs, not just for Hungary but for all factions (except for the Ottomans or the Hafsid Caliphate, couldn't find them on there).

LINKS:
Main Page: http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page
Page for Carpathia (Hungary, Wallachia, Moldova etc): http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Carpathia
Page for Italia (Italian houses, as the name suggests): http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Italia
Page for Helvetia (Swiss Cantons): http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Helvetia
Page for Germania (Holy Roman Empire): http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Germania
Page for Francia (French houses, as the name suggests): http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Francia
Page for Iberia (Spanish houses): http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Iberia

[Aneirin]

You have done a great job mate! Very appreciated!
Sadly, I can not rep you at the moment, but you'll definitely get one as soon as I am able to

As for your research:

We already look into the Magyar-Mod for inspiration, though we are probably not able to compete with their expertise, I am afraid.
Lack of talent, though zefrem might become one, we shall see
Currently, he is working on the bande nere, the black band

For Tsardoms: You might have noticed that all of our Ottoman units are taken from this mod
Though, the idea of using some models as mercenaries is new, thanks for the hint!! I'll contact them about it


Hehe
Have a look here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...f-arms-Website

Cheers,
Aneirin

[Aneirin]

A sneak peek on Friday's preview
-> https://www.facebook.com/ItalianWarsMod/

[Wallachian]

For Tsardoms: You might have noticed that all of our Ottoman units are taken from this mod
Though, the idea of using some models as mercenaries is new, thanks for the hint!! I'll contact them about it

Come on dude, you even have access to our dev forum, I am sure we can work something out.

BTW. You could try and negotiating with the magyar mod the use of their units. They agree to give permission to mods that are historically accurate.

[Aneirin]

Well, to contact was more like posting in your dev forum
Yes, we have already considered that option but we'll try to create and merge some own models

[Cyprian2]

I love the new Hungarian units! Such great variety and detail! While I realize that Hungary as an independent nation did not last long into this time period, I look forward to taking them up and changing history.

Regarding the question you posed a couple weeks ago about AOR recruitment (which also looks great, by the way) and specifically the artillery. At the moment (playing 4.1) I find it too easy and tempting to simply recruit high-end artillery mercs rather than developing the tech necessary for building them. It's expensive, yes, but as Florence I have money coming out the wazoo. I would suggest strictly controlling the availability of artillery in mercenary pools. For one thing, Italian nations rarely (if ever) fielded large amounts of artillery except in sieges, which is of course what gave Francis' huge artillery train a potential edge over his Italian opponents. I could be wrong, though, it's been a while since I read up on this. Anyway, just my two cents.

Also, I've been playing a bit of this Italian developed mod, which overlaps The Italian Wars in setting, factions, units, etc. and I really like what they've done with their merc system: making family members recruitable as heavy cavalry, in the true spirit of the Condottieri. I also like that they have named some of their merc units as specific companies (e.g. "The White Company") which gives a really unique feel to the otherwise generic vanilla system. Finally, I'm pretty sure they've implemented Mr. Crow's war wagons, though I haven't come across any yet. It may be worth checking out if you haven't already.

As always, I'm eagerly anticipating the greatest that will be TIW Ultimate. Keep up the great work.

[Aneirin]

Cheers, mate!

I see, so you are suggesting to limit the artillery even more and make it faction specific, as well?

Oh yes, I have this one already on my radar and played it a couple of turns myself
To change the heavy cavalry completely would make no sense in our case, though it would be a nice feature especially for the minor factions to recruit some generals to increase their heavy cavalry availability.

As for the mercenary companies, I am afraid their time was already over at the beginning of the Italian Wars. Therefore it would be quite historical inaccurate to implement them, nevertheless they would add some "flavour"

Yes, the war wagons are kind of tricky to implement in TIW, since we already have custom made animations.
I will hopefully be able to fix these issues

[Rick]

Let's put things in an economic perspective. I understand the historicity of the region economics of the game, but for me it's not fun. At least have regions provide an income that supports the units and garrisons that they have at the start. I know it's A-Historical, but if the game isn't fun to play no one is going to play it.

And the Ottomans! OMG! Am I wrong in thinking that they were drowning in gold and tribute at this time? They fielded armies of hundreds of thousands of soldiers during this period (please correct me if I'm wrong). Granted, there logistics sucks and experienced huge attrition and in some case their armies (not just the Ottomans armies) melted away.

I see a good balance to this game, but my hobby is history. This, to me, falls short in that regard.

[Aneirin]

Let's put things in an economic perspective. I understand the historicity of the region economics of the game, but for me it's not fun. At least have regions provide an income that supports the units and garrisons that they have at the start. I know it's A-Historical, but if the game isn't fun to play no one is going to play it.

And the Ottomans! OMG! Am I wrong in thinking that they were drowning in gold and tribute at this time? They fielded armies of hundreds of thousands of soldiers during this period (please correct me if I'm wrong). Granted, there logistics sucks and experienced huge attrition and in some case their armies (not just the Ottomans armies) melted away.

I see a good balance to this game, but my hobby is history. This, to me, falls short in that regard.

Many thank's for your feedback!
As for your point economics, you are always free to ask away in our Tips & Tricks section here, in case you need any advice

We paid more attention to enable the player recreating history than historical accuracy. Our aim was to provide the player with as many opportunities as possible to decide which direction his faction should be heading.

So what do you think should be improved in your point of view?

[Rick]

Please understand, I am not a modder, so any recommendations are purely for game play.

I would like to see stronger city garrisons (generated when a city is besieged) and more income for the ability to sustain a 10 unit army. Or, drastically reduce the upkeep of units.

Now, M2TW has a great many limitations; currently, it's impossible form the League of Venus to confront an event like France and Charles VIII's invasion of 1495. But M2TW does I believe provide for a workaround. Could this be scripted similar to a crusade where the player is allowed to form a similar league to confront an invasion? As with crusades, this would include an award of a large sum of money allowing the player to recruit allied units (similar to the crusader units) and enough upkeep for 2 or more turns to keep the army in the field to accomplish the task. So if an Ottoman or French, or HRE player invades Italy (with a 20 unit army) a defending player will be allowed the opportunity to form a league, build a fairly good army to confront the situation, as they did historically.

[Aneirin]

No worries

Well, a garrison script would be feasible that is for sure, many mods have one. As I recall TIW had one once too, though we have removed it.. actually I forgot why..?
Anyway, what do you mean by garrison troops, some militias hastily drawn from the population of the settlement?

Finances. The reason it is harder to keep an army in the field in TIW is simply that we wanted to represent the importance of money during this time. Actually the period of the Italian Wars ended simply because the French and Hapsburg ran out of money in the end. So if you are in trouble we have implemented a nice event, enabling you to make a loan , though you might want to consider to send out your merchants to lucrative resources.
As for the upkeep of the units, I am currently completely overworking that part of the game. TIW-Ultimate will strictly follow the guidelines of Real Recruitment and Real Combat project.

As for your idea! Awesome, but sadly it is not feasible. The ability to call a crusade is linked to the college of cardinals, which we have completely deactivated due gameplay and historical reasons
Nevertheless, this idea about forming a league is great, the problem is, we have already decided how to deal with such occasions. We chose the historical one, means we will spawn all events according to their dates and in respect of any preconditions. So to implement your idea would mean to completely overthrow our current concept and that is not possible I am afraid

But, many thank's for sharing your ideas