{DIK} Discussion

[Frunk]

You mean Iceland would be a kind of dead end, just like Africa was for TIW?

For shame, I haven't found the time to play TIW yet, so I can't say if it would be like that.

Assuming it's a large-scale, geographically-correct Britannia map, Iceland would be sort of far away, meaning that your British Isles are smaller for the sake of an area of the map that isn't really needed. There was no Icelandic faction at the time (until the "Commonwealth" of the 11th century IIRC), so Iceland either starts rebel with some Irish monks, or acts as a base for a Viking faction. You've probably done far more with the M2TW AI than I have at this early stage in my modding career, but we both know that sea invasions can be a bit bothersome, particularly if the distance is rather large. It would make more sense to me from a gameplay, AI and geographical balance standpoint for the Vikings to have their bases in Scandinavia, or in the Orkneys, Shetlands, Hebrides or similar islands, rather than distant, barren, inactive Iceland. My two cents.

[Kamil Szadkowski]

Sorry if I ask a stupid question, but despite my attempts to find this in forum I still don't know what is the exact time period of this mod. From what I saw it looks like XVI century but I would prefer to know exact time frame.

Thanks!

[Aneirin]

Yes, it is about the 16th century, covering the time of the Italian Wars in and around Italy
Starting date is 1492 till the peace of Cateau-Cambrésis in 1559.

[Kamil Szadkowski]

Yes, it is about the 16th century, covering the time of the Italian Wars in and around Italy
Starting date is 1492 till the peace of Cateau-Cambrésis in 1559.

Thanks for the quick answer. I'll definitely download this mod. Looks like fun.

If I may I have another question. I've looked on some units preview. I was particularly interested in Kingdom of Hungary and a I've noticed something really strange. Namely the Flügelhusaren. My German is a bit limited even though I was learning it for couple years, but just from simple deduction it definitely means Winged Hussars. Probably I should ask what Polish Hussars are doing in Hungarian army in first place. Hungarian hussars looked nothing like this.

Now I'm sure that this mod is mostly about first half of XVI century so... Your Winged Hussars are not only wearing armours from second half of XVII century (You used models from With fire and the Sword, right?) but also they have completely ahistorical armored horses. There are no sources supporting using horse armour by them(maybe an exception in form steel plates covering horses chests), quite the contrary. Furthermore it seems they wear wings on their back. Polish hussars started wearing them on the backplate in half of XVIII century so two hundred years AFTER the time period of this mod.

Another problem is... Well some banners of winged hussars indeed wore plate armour in that period already but most of them didn't wore any armour aside from maybe padded zupan. Some of them had chainmail shirts.

Most of polish hussars then looked like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I know that you're at the finish of your work with this mod so you won't do much changes, let's say that my post is sort off reminder and clue for the future projects.

[Aneirin]

Yes, I have been asked this question for several times now, the answer is, that the Hungarians will have the chance to call for aid from their Polish cousins.
Though you are right, the models used are not actually suitable for this time frame. Yes, these models are from With fire and Sword mod.

I'd really like to change the whole roster of the Hungarians, though my 3D skills are more than basic and therefore I am sadly not able to make any "real" changes on the models.

Nevertheless, your suggestions are more than welcome and in case you have more ideas or suggestions on the Hungarian roster, just post them here.
Maybe some day I'll be able to realize them or someone else pick up this task

[Kamil Szadkowski]

Nevertheless, your suggestions are more than welcome and in case you have more ideas or suggestions on the Hungarian roster, just post them here.
Maybe some day I'll be able to realize them or someone else pick up this task

Ah, for a moment I was a bit afraid that I went too picky and nerdy about this. Well, maybe there's a way to resolve this problem. In that time the polish king was Sigismund I the Old. If he would send help to the Hungarians he most likely wouldn't send hussars but Kopijnicy. You see hussars weren't considered an elite then. That place belonged then for Kopijnicy which is translated for Lancers. Those lancers were heavy shock cavalry armed with lances (obviously), gothic armours, maces/warhammers/longswords and armoured horses.

So for now you could just change the unit of Winged Hussars for Polish Lancers using the vanilla model of Gothic Knights (it'll fit perfectly). That would solve the problem for the time you find a deciend 3D modeller.

Another thing that I noticed in Hungarian roster in preview you posted(keep in mind that I still have to download this mod, though I probably do this today evening, but still for now I can be unaware of certain things) is that Hajduks are mounted. Well, according to my knowledge they should be infantry armed with arquebuses and bardiches.

[Aneirin]

Not at all, constructive criticism is always welcome here at TIW

Well, yes, that would be at least a start, thanks!

Do you have some decent information about their equipment and battle tactics?
Please let me know, since the Hungarian roster was mostly based on suggestions
Though, I recall that we mounted them, because the Uskoks were already equipped with arquebuses and axes.

[Kamil Szadkowski]

Do you have some decent information about their equipment and battle tactics?
Please let me know, since the Hungarian roster was mostly based on suggestions
Though, I recall that we mounted them, because the Uskoks were already equipped with arquebuses and axes.

I can give you some hints, just keep in mind I'm not a specialists of any kind.

Well, Hajduks were core of infantry both in Hungary and Poland. As for their tactics, there were changing with time but certain things remain "stable". Hajduk were armed with arquebuses (later with muskets) and bardiche used during fire as musket rest.
It seems that usually after firing a volley or two they were taking their bardiches and charging at the enemy. They did so for example in Battle of Lubieszów 1577. In this battle hajduks manage to break more numerous german pike and shot infantry. At first they shoot a volley from their guns and then used bardiches to cut the tips of german pikes. Without protection of pikes hajduks had an easy job with cutting down the enemy infantry. As curiosity I can add that hajduks used exactly the same tactic (with some minor modifications) in Battle of Vienna in 1683. So it seems it was effective. But I should add that ther were also unit s of hajduks that didn't used bardiches but only sabres.

In terms of firing and formations: Hajduk units were usually forming in 10 lines with 10 or 15 soldiers in each line. This give us 100 or 150 in each unit. Such units were part of bigger formation known as banner. Each line starting from the first after shooting the volley was crouching to allow the line behind them to shoot. As you see it's a different tactic from countermarch.

About Hungarian rouster:About Hungarian roster: Well I think in order to remain balance you could remove Ungarische Arquebusier and replace them with Hajduks armed with arquebuses and bardiches or sabres. As for Uskoks. In your place I would leave them as lower tier unit, with less organization and morale with one handed axes or with sabres(and fire arms of course). Since Uskoks were refugees, that had a role similar to polish cossacks and since they were more like pirates and skirmishers you could make mounted version of Uskoks to fill the gap after dismounting hajduks, you know for balancing purposes.

Unfortunately it's hard to find good representations of hajduks from XVI century

This one is from the beginning of XVII century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This one show Transylvanian army, unfortunately also form XVII century. You can see hajduks below hussars.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And another hajduks:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Aneirin]

I can give you some hints, just keep in mind I'm not a specialists of any kind.

Well, Hajduks were core of infantry both in Hungary and Poland. As for their tactics, there were changing with time but certain things remain "stable". Hajduk were armed with arquebuses (later with muskets) and bardiche used during fire as musket rest.
It seems that usually after firing a volley or two they were taking their bardiches and charging at the enemy. They did so for example in Battle of Lubieszów 1577. In this battle hajduks manage to break more numerous german pike and shot infantry. At first they shoot a volley from their guns and then used bardiches to cut the tips of german pikes. Without protection of pikes hajduks had an easy job with cutting down the enemy infantry. As curiosity I can add that hajduks used exactly the same tactic (with some minor modifications) in Battle of Vienna in 1683. So it seems it was effective. But I should add that ther were also unit s of hajduks that didn't used bardiches but only sabres.

In terms of firing and formations: Hajduk units were usually forming in 10 lines with 10 or 15 soldiers in each line. This give us 100 or 150 in each unit. Such units were part of bigger formation known as banner. Each line starting from the first after shooting the volley was crouching to allow the line behind them to shoot. As you see it's a different tactic from countermarch.

About Hungarian rouster:About Hungarian roster: Well I think in order to remain balance you could remove Ungarische Arquebusier and replace them with Hajduks armed with arquebuses and bardiches or sabres. As for Uskoks. In your place I would leave them as lower tier unit, with less organization and morale with one handed axes or with sabres(and fire arms of course). Since Uskoks were refugees, that had a role similar to polish cossacks and since they were more like pirates and skirmishers you could make mounted version of Uskoks to fill the gap after dismounting hajduks, you know for balancing purposes.

Unfortunately it's hard to find good representations of hajduks from XVI century

This one is from the beginning of XVII century.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This one show Transylvanian army, unfortunately also form XVII century. You can see hajduks below hussars.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And another hajduks:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Many thank's for your resources! I can assure you, that I'll overwork the Hungarian roster according to your suggestions.
Except for one thing, the Hungarian Arquebusiers will remain in the roster, since the Uskoks and Hajduks are introduced by events and would therefore weaken the Hungarians decisively.

The tactic of the Hadjuks is very interesting and luckily it is possible to realize it in the game due some old RTW unit attributes.

[Kamil Szadkowski]

Except for one thing, the Hungarian Arquebusiers will remain in the roster, since the Uskoks and Hajduks are introduced by events and would therefore weaken the Hungarians decisively.

I didn't know of it back then when writing the post. Now when I already played the mod I do realize that.


P.S. I had great fun with it so far.

[Aneirin]

Shame on you man!

I quite agree to your point, Iceland is too far off and to less important to justify its presence on the map.

[Mausolos of Caria]

All of you should play DIK first!

Unfortunately I don't know many M2TW modders who could help you with descriptions, but I will always offer my research and assistance As for the Britain mod, I would agree to leave out Iceland and better include a part of Western Norway, or even expand the map a bit eastwards to Denmark, as I said before. But at least a bit like this:



Expand it a bit northwards to include the Shetlands and possibly Faroes (for gameplay's sake they could be moved a bit southwards if necessary) and a little bit eastwards and you also have a good chunk of Norway on the map, especially Hordaland and Rogaland. If you don't want to have factions on the continent, just make the Low Countries full of trade resources, so the merchants can have a battleground there Which also fits the role of the Low Countries in the (admittedly a bit later) middle ages.

[Aneirin]

haha
Thank's Mausolos, but currently I have more than enough input. First of all, I have to organize and structure the information before I can derive events/scripts from it. But I am still busy finishing the units(sounds, ui cards, minor changes on the models etc).


Well, this map would only need to be expanded a bit north so you will have the Faores on the map, too.
Apart from that, it would suit perfectly!
Yes, the Lowlands could cause some trouble, since to adding a faction to fill it, wouldn't be really sufficient in my eyes.
Though I don't really like the merchant idea either...

[Aneirin]

Great!
I am always glad to receive praise
But I'd also like to hear what you don't like

[Kamil Szadkowski]

But I'd also like to hear what you don't like

Well, it's not like I don't like something when I comment about it. I just like to draw modders attention to certain details and provide some sources when needed.

Description of winged hussars do need some changing. Specifically, this part about their wings. Wings doesn't offer any protection nor do any sound while moving you see, it's a myth.

By the way, are you familiar with works of Niccolo Machiavelli? Particularly "The Prince"? One of interesting things he describe in it are the tactics of french/swiss and spanish armies. He notes that Spain uses pavismen (soldiers armed with pavise and sword or other one-handed weapon) to break through pike formations of french or swiss infantry. Well, I've noticed that Spain doesn't have such a unit (or did I overlooked something?). I know that game mechanics does not allow to use great shields to brake through pike-wall... but... Unit with better resistance to missiles still will be interesting and useful tool to use. Not mentioning historical accuracy.

[Wallachian]

Well, it's not like I don't like something when I comment about it. I just like to draw modders attention to certain details and provide some sources when needed.

Description of winged hussars do need some changing. Specifically, this part about their wings. Wings doesn't offer any protection nor do any sound while moving you see, it's a myth.

By the way, are you familiar with works of Niccolo Machiavelli? Particularly "The Prince"? One of interesting things he describe in it are the tactics of french/swiss and spanish armies. He notes that Spain uses pavismen (soldiers armed with pavise and sword or other one-handed weapon) to break through pike formations of french or swiss infantry. Well, I've noticed that Spain doesn't have such a unit (or did I overlooked something?). I know that game mechanics does not allow to use great shields to brake through pike-wall... but... Unit with better resistance to missiles still will be interesting and useful tool to use. Not mentioning historical accuracy.

As Aneirin mentioned this is incorrect. The spanish did not use pavise and swords units but they used the rodeleros. The Rodeleros ("shield bearers"), also called espadachines ("swordsmen") and colloquially known as "Sword and Buckler Men", were Spanish troops in the early 16th, equipped with steel shields or bucklers known as rodela and double-edged razor sharp Toledo made swords (usually of the side-sword type). Originally conceived as an Italian attempt to revive the legionary swordsman, they were adopted by the Spanish and used with great efficiency in the Italian Wars during the 1510s and 1520s, but discontinued in the 1530s. When the Spanish adopted the colunella (the first of the mixed pike and shot formations), they used small groups of sword and buckler men to break the deadlock of the push of pike, as the Swiss and Germans used halberdiers, comparable to the role of the German Doppelsoldner during the same period. The rodeleros typically stayed inside the hollowed out squares of the pike formations and broke away at the right moment. At the Battle of Ravenna in 1512, they proved to be deadly at this tactic; however, when facing a fresh, well ordered pike square, they were vulnerable, as at the Battle of Seminara. They were also very vulnerable to attack by cavalry. As battlefield tactics evolved during the early 16th century, the Spanish ultimately concluded that the vulnerability of the rodeleros on the battlefield outweighed their strengths, and they were dropped as a troop type when the Spanish infantry were reorganized into tercios in the 1530s.

[Aneirin]

Very well
Yes? Good, than Morifea can see to it in good time

I am
I thought, that they fought with buckler and sword, to break the lines of the pikemen, not with a pavise?
You mean like the Mantova City Guard?

[Kamil Szadkowski]

I am I thought, that they fought with buckler and sword, to break the lines of the pikemen, not with a pavise?
You mean like the Mantova City Guard?

The problem is that (according to my knowledge) buckler is not a weapon intended for military use. Bucklers were used in civilian context as a self defence tool or for duels.
Also, I don't see how with such small shield you would be able to break through pike-wall. Here occurs the analogy to Roman Legionaries using their big scutum for braking phalanx.

Furthermore I don't recall using shields different than pavises by western type infantry in this time period.

With exception of italian rotellas. Hm.. there were also buckler-like shields used by the XVI century scottish mercenaries...

I try to check my "Prince" and look after some informations about spanish infantry during italian wars. Just to be sure.

[Aneirin]

I am referring to these guys here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeleros

[Kamil Szadkowski]

I am referring to these guys here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeleros

In that case it seems I'm wrong after all. I didn't know about this rodela shields. I still check my Prince. I wonder if this is a flaw of translation...